What part of one's humanity goes to the Land?

[aliantha]

This occurred to me while I was posting a reply in another thread. What would you call the part of the human being that goes to the Land? One's physical body stays here, of course, and some part of one's consciousness departs -- but what is it? Is it the soul? It's important enough to existence in our reality that Linden can't save Covenant's life without it.

This assumes, of course, that you're not buying SRD's shell game about whether the Land is real or not. Because if you believe the Land isn't real, then no part of you goes to the Land -- you're just dreaming, or hallucinating.

Anyway...what do you think? If you think it's the soul, then that opens an interesting question about the nature of heaven & hell, doesn't it?

[Guest]

Assuming that the land & our world are both real ~ I would definately have to say that it's the soul, or at least what we consider a soul to be, that travels to the land. Else the person would cease to be who they are altogether.

What I am curious about is how do their bodies tie into this. If our soul makes us who we are.........why not appear in the land in a different body........you know....time for an upgrade! Is it to satisfy what the soul/self has come to expect?

We already discovered from Hile Troy that if one dies in our world they continue to live in the land. But what about vise-versa, Covenant did die in the end, but what if he hadn't been mortally wounded in this world......would he of been able to die in the land? Or would his soul just simply transfer back to his body in this world after death?

You know......they say that if you die in a dream, that you'll die in real life.....it's not true of course (done that, still here) But maybe that theory ties into things?????? Just a thought.

-Coercri

[Coercri]

Now that time I know I was logged in.......very weird.......

-Coercri

[Guest]

im not quite sure myself what the soul refers to...wether its our concious...subconcious..both ..neither , or what we percieve ourselves to be??? its quite a large question to answer without getting all theological and thinky but if your mind has no idea what the land is ......then to experiance it the way TC ETC did youd need your senses touch..smell..feel
which shows that some of the corperal senses were being used ...come to think of it an aura sounds about right for this..it holds memories , senses and also can proably be removed to another plane of existence without causing death ...hhmm any of you guys got anythig on buddism ( arnt they the guys who can transend the mortal plane??)

[arwenavery]

that anon was me ..i was surei was logged in!!!

[arwenavery]

a little bit waffley i know ..imsorry:)

[xp_spec]

As I have read others comments I gain an understanding of your thoughts. I feel that the part the goes to the land is two things:

1. It might be the Soul that goes because, for Covenant, by going to this "Other" Place it seems to teach him new lessons and he feels better about himself.

2. It might also be something his brain does to him while it has to do some immediate repairs to his body. If your not certain what I mean by that I'll explain it differently. When he gets into these accidents that leads him to "The Land", he has severe injuries, and so his body, to cope, makes him hallucinate to deal with the pain and the repair.

I find the Soul idea more believing but, who knows, maybe #2 really was SRD's real idea for the book.

[pitchwife]

The way I understand it, considering The Land is real, the whole person, body and soul, transfers to the land. So to me the question is: what then stays behind? Could it be that the body exists in both worlds but the soul can occupy just one of them?

If the body alone stays behind then it is like a "plant". Modern medicine makes it possible to go on living is this state for years. Do people in this state have a spirit, a will to live?

Linden perceives that without his spirit, she can't save Covenant's body, but this is her perception. I wonder if this wasn't just an excuse her subconscious created to cover her impotence in trying to save his body. I mean she really didn't even try!!!

-pitchwife

[aliantha]

So Arwen, you're saying it's a sort of astral projection that goes to the Land? That's an interesting idea.

Coercri, TC *did* trade up for a better model (one without leprosy) -- in the first Chrons, anyway....

Pitchwife, I don't exactly remember the scene off the top of my head, but I think Linden didn't bother trying because she sensed that it wouldn't do any good. There was Covenant's body, but there was no there there -- his soul or essence or what-have-you had left the building. All that he had left behind was a shell -- the physical self. Perhaps the autonomic responses were enough to keep him alive, as long as the body suffered no major trauma -- but for anything as complex as healing, the "self" had to be there.

If you think of this in terms of the Christian body-mind-spirit/soul triumvirate, then the mind would contain the personality, I think, and the spirit or soul would be the spark of life that animates us and connects us to the divine (the Force, if you will...). It would seem to me that both the mind and spirit cross over into the Land, leaving the shell behind in this world. But you're right -- then where does the body that you use in the Land come from? Because clearly they had a physical presence there.

[danlo]

I think the mind/body and spirit r existing in two dimensions simultaneously--it's just that time moves much quicker in the Land than it does here--I keep thinking of TC's boots in LFB and the footwear of TC and LA vs. The Sunbane in TWL..

[Skyweir]

mmm .. interesting and perplexing at the same time!! ..

I think it is the 'spirit' that goes to the Land .. the essence that gives life and light to the being .. or body!!

The body without its essential personal force is merely a shell .. an empty vessel ..

I think that the co-existence theory of danlo's sounds good and right .. all these elements together are necessary for mortal function ..

We often think of spirits as being intangible and without any semblance of substance .. yet we know that TC had substance .. walked .. ate .. felt pain .. was intimate ..etc etc..

So SRD introduces an unorthodox notion of a spirit or disembodied 'astral projected' type being ..

Or is it like a dream where the reality is unimportant .. rather it is the perception that determines the nature of that existence ..

though in dreams I often find I am unable to engage in physical battle or other perceived typically physical interactions .. mmm ... but only on occassions .. on other occassions I am able to do a great many things ... mmm ... interesting.

If we accept the Land as real .. then it stands to reason that it is the spirit that is translated to another dimension .. but what is unexplained is how that spirit engages in activity like that of a physical world .. Is then the Land not physical? .. but it seems physical .. so does the mere fact that it inhabits another dimension and time mean .. that this world is corporeal in its own existence ..

I am not sure that is clear .. I will have to think on this interesting conundrum more deeply ..

[danlo]

Perhaps it is the mind and spirit co-existing in teo dimensions at once but another body is formed, or created, around those entities in the Land--perhaps it is Earthpower itself that brings fourth a corporeal "body" out of mind and spirit--to then exist and be precieved in the Land. TC is better than he was and then begins healing at a rapid pace after he enters the Land and thoughout the 1st Chrons--so perhaps it is both his concious and subconcious desires to be healthy (in the physical sense) that are latched on to and then manifested into physical form in the Land by Earthpower--thus making him real. Then as we see in the 2nd Chrons he is a weakened state that almost corresponds to how Earthpower has been sapped of it's strenght by the Sunbane. Then aside from the Sunbane the lesser forms of Earthpower--and what remains may be magnified by the ring thus preventing Marid's venom from totally overcoming him--keeping him alive but depriving him of Earthsight and bringing numbness back to his body--Earthpower sustains Linden as well and grants her the Earthsight but it is probably her "newness" to the Land combined with proximity to the ring that does this--also remember this: Linden's health is, comparitively, hundreds of times better than TC's in our world during the time they are in the Land, so her "silver thread" or "life cord" that reaches from her body in our world to her new body in the Land does a much better job of sustaining her than does TC's...

[Bannor]

I am really enjoying this topic, and all of you make excellent points. The only thing I have to add is that TC's health or lack of it (in the Land) is due to the presence of hurtloam (applied in the first two books) or the absence of hurtloam in the other books. TC did not improve just by being in the Land.
As for what part goes to the Land, I'd have to say the spirit/soul leaving a "brain-dead" body behind. As to how he gets a "new" body in the Land...I have no idea. Fantasy doesn't always have to sound logical though.

[danlo]

TC was already feeling sensations in his fingers and toes b4 any hurtloam was applied--but hurtloam alone didn't restore him 2 better health--yes it definately helped and was a form of Earthpower...

[Bannor]

If it wasn't hurtloam alone, then why didn't Covenant's senses all return in the 3rd through 6th books? He was only given hurtloam in the first two books.

[pitchwife]

Bannor, I must say you have a point there! Fantasy doesn't always have to be logical. I guess we are all so logic driven that we lose our footing without it.
-pitchwife

[Skyweir]

yes perhaps .. but being logical even though just fantasy makes the tale that more exhilirating ..

for example I love the detail that Tolkien for one .. encorporated into his tale of the Ring .. the map of the Land .. that aid the reader to envisage the journeying .. I love the intricate play between characters that establishes the social history of the inhabitants in both SRD and JRR T's creation. There is logic in fantasy and I think it adds to the 'believability' of the fantasy narrative .. its an irony .. isnt it?

I recently saw 'Time Machine' with Guy Pearce .. and was totally impressed with the presence of a satisfying explanation and reason for the time traveller .. not being able to affect a certain change in time .. and it is a paradox ..

some logic .. is an advantage .. or rather some set of logical process and premise .. highly desired trait in all fantasy writing .. imo.

[aliantha]

Yes, and all fiction -- and especially fantasy -- has to hang together by its own internal logic, or the story doesn't work. How many times have you watched a movie or TV show that you were only marginally interested in, and then some impossible plot twist occurred and you started shouting at the screen and/or turned the channel?

The beauty of stuff as well-written as TCTC is that we have to dissect the plot down to this kind of minutiae to get to the impossibilities -- and even then, we all just kind of go, "Hmm, I have to think about that," and go on.

[Tohrm]

I just finished rereading the 1st and 2nd chrons., and I did not see anywhere that TC was regaining his sensory input anyplace. At least until the hurtloam was applied. Where is that mentioned?

[Skyweir]

what do you refer to .. when you speak of sensory input?