Almost all the "good guys" came out alive, (except the poor Perdon!) and EVERY one of them got to finish off their personal enemies, or at least strike a grand blow.
Terisa vs Eremis
Artagel vs Gart
Havelock vs Vagel
Geraden vs Gilbur
Joyse vs Festten
Castellan Lebbick vs Gart
Also, except for Nyle and Elega, most of the main "good side" characters don't commit grievous offenses. (Or at least they're not defined by that.) That was one thing that made this such a lighthearted story for me.
Even though Terisa almost yields to Eremis when she is in her early compliant phase, he gets interrupted every time he tries to try something with her! He got some serious frustration!
Perhaps this Fairytale-ishness was the thing that "ruined" the story for some people? I think I just thought of it as the plot was part of SRD's tongue-in-cheek humor.
Fairy-Tale: "Good guys" live happily ever after.
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Linna Heartbooger
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Fairy-Tale: "Good guys" live happily ever after.
Last edited by Linna Heartbooger on Wed May 25, 2011 3:17 pm, edited 4 times in total.
"People without hope not only don't write novels, but what is more to the point, they don't read them.
They don't take long looks at anything, because they lack the courage.
The way to despair is to refuse to have any kind of experience, and the novel, of course, is a way to have experience."
-Flannery O'Connor
"In spite of much that militates against quietness there are people who still read books. They are the people who keep me going."
-Elisabeth Elliot, Preface, "A Chance to Die: The Life and Legacy of Amy Carmichael"
They don't take long looks at anything, because they lack the courage.
The way to despair is to refuse to have any kind of experience, and the novel, of course, is a way to have experience."
-Flannery O'Connor
"In spite of much that militates against quietness there are people who still read books. They are the people who keep me going."
-Elisabeth Elliot, Preface, "A Chance to Die: The Life and Legacy of Amy Carmichael"
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Linna Heartbooger
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Okay, I see your point RE Lebbick vs Gart. Eremis was the person who Lebbick would have most wanted to kill. I guess I should put Lebbick more in the category of "strike a grand blow" for fulfilling his duty. He was waaaay to pleased with his manner of death.danlo wrote:I don't really see that between Lebbick and Gart, but I agree with you everywhere else. The Tor didn't come out alive, but he probably wouldn't have lived much longer after Gart's kick to his side...he accomplished what he needed.
Except actually, Gart's walking freely / attacking people in Orison was the biggest stain on Lebbick's record as Castellan. And I'd say his duty was the greatest love in his life at that point.
Also, I forgot to put "Terisa vs her father" in my list of conflicts, but I guess that's because it wasn't a kill, just a victory.
That mis-translation just makes the story EXTRA fairy-tale-esque. IMO, it was like SRD gratifying his readers' desire to see something they wanted to see happen: Terisa standing up to her father, and saying goodbye to her old world.
"People without hope not only don't write novels, but what is more to the point, they don't read them.
They don't take long looks at anything, because they lack the courage.
The way to despair is to refuse to have any kind of experience, and the novel, of course, is a way to have experience."
-Flannery O'Connor
"In spite of much that militates against quietness there are people who still read books. They are the people who keep me going."
-Elisabeth Elliot, Preface, "A Chance to Die: The Life and Legacy of Amy Carmichael"
They don't take long looks at anything, because they lack the courage.
The way to despair is to refuse to have any kind of experience, and the novel, of course, is a way to have experience."
-Flannery O'Connor
"In spite of much that militates against quietness there are people who still read books. They are the people who keep me going."
-Elisabeth Elliot, Preface, "A Chance to Die: The Life and Legacy of Amy Carmichael"
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Orlion
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It is certainly a much more light-hearted read than any of Donaldson's other novels.
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Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
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Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
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High Lord Tolkien
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I can't see how making any of the good guys have miserable endings would have improved the story in anyway.
I seem to remember many of them being unhappy through most of the 2 books until the end.
Can you explain further?
Or are you just a "it's always darkest just before it turns pitch black" kinda person?
I seem to remember many of them being unhappy through most of the 2 books until the end.
Can you explain further?
Or are you just a "it's always darkest just before it turns pitch black" kinda person?
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Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
Funny, I seem to remember Lebbick having a tragic end. I really need to re-read this one.
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Well, tragic in a way but his whole life had been tragic, his wife dying topped with beating saddith half to death something that even he would have trouble living with eventually, death its self was a mercy to him as he didnt really want to live and was finally set free from his misery.Rigel wrote:Funny, I seem to remember Lebbick having a tragic end. I really need to re-read this one.
Dont forget the whole Argus & Ribald story aswell, that death probably hit me harder than any other, For so long it was always 'Argus and Ribald' and they were really growing on me, one dying while the other one lives is far worse than both dying.
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Linna Heartbooger
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Oh, I think it's pretty great, actually. I just think it seems a little bizzarrely out-of-character for Donaldson. (though I don't think he's someone who just plays one note all the time by any means) And -maybe- it feels a little unrealistic.High Lord Tolkien wrote:I can't see how making any of the good guys have miserable endings would have improved the story in anyway.
I seem to remember many of them being unhappy through most of the 2 books until the end.
Can you explain further?
(Actually, I knew that alot of the major characters were going to survive by the time I finished Book 1. SRD just gave Terisa so many "rescues" from Eremis' seduction attempts. Things HAD to turn out "right in the end.")
I was partially trying to suggest this as an explanation for why some people have a beef with the series. (But that's for them to say - if that's what they really thought / how they really felt.)
Hahah, definitely not. (though perhaps you already have gotten that idea from other posts of mine, and are being ironic)High Lord Tolkien wrote:Or are you just a "it's always darkest just before it turns pitch black" kinda person?
Good point, Harrowed! That one really did hurt.Harrowed wrote:Dont forget the whole Argus & Ribald story aswell, that death probably hit me harder than any other, For so long it was always 'Argus and Ribald' and they were really growing on me, one dying while the other one lives is far worse than both dying.
"People without hope not only don't write novels, but what is more to the point, they don't read them.
They don't take long looks at anything, because they lack the courage.
The way to despair is to refuse to have any kind of experience, and the novel, of course, is a way to have experience."
-Flannery O'Connor
"In spite of much that militates against quietness there are people who still read books. They are the people who keep me going."
-Elisabeth Elliot, Preface, "A Chance to Die: The Life and Legacy of Amy Carmichael"
They don't take long looks at anything, because they lack the courage.
The way to despair is to refuse to have any kind of experience, and the novel, of course, is a way to have experience."
-Flannery O'Connor
"In spite of much that militates against quietness there are people who still read books. They are the people who keep me going."
-Elisabeth Elliot, Preface, "A Chance to Die: The Life and Legacy of Amy Carmichael"
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Vraith
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It's kinda funny to be talking happily ever after when so many people I try to get into SRD find him depressing [even the ones who manage to finish!]
I personally like it...sure, the "good guys" as a group win, but the price they pay, and the way they pay it! There's always personal it really hurts sacrifice, not only hero-archetype 'I lost some but I won so it's all good' sacrifice...unlike a fairy tale, you know the pain continues for the victors. One of my favorite aspects of SRD's writing.
I personally like it...sure, the "good guys" as a group win, but the price they pay, and the way they pay it! There's always personal it really hurts sacrifice, not only hero-archetype 'I lost some but I won so it's all good' sacrifice...unlike a fairy tale, you know the pain continues for the victors. One of my favorite aspects of SRD's writing.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
Exactly. To me, it's a very bittersweet victory for our heroes, mainly because I look at King Joyse and I immediately think of how many good and innocent people suffered and died in order that his complex plan could work.Vraith wrote:sure, the "good guys" as a group win, but the price they pay, and the way they pay it! There's always personal it really hurts sacrifice, not only hero-archetype 'I lost some but I won so it's all good' sacrifice...unlike a fairy tale, you know the pain continues for the victors.
It doesn't take much digging to uncover the amount of pain and death lurking beneath the "happily ever after" surface of Mordant's Need. While the overall tone of MN is definitely lighter than TCTC, I maintain that in some respects, MN is more grisly than anything in the Chronicles. Also, when MN does delve into horror, those scenes are darker and more disturbing than almost anything I've read in TCTC. If SRD were to ever write a full horror novel, I've no doubt that he'd succeed in messing up my mind for days on end.
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Vraith
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.matrixman wrote: I maintain that in some respects, MN is more grisly than anything in the Chronicles. Also, when MN does delve into horror, those scenes are darker and more disturbing than almost anything I've read in TCTC. If SRD were to ever write a full horror novel, I've no doubt that he'd succeed in messing up my mind for days on end.
I can get behind that. Also, somewhere in the GI, SRD commented that he'd like to do a horror book at some point, but [paraphrasing..can't recall exact words] didn't think his mind worked that way, or it wasn't the kind idea he gets, or somesuch...too bad, because he has all the necessary things for it [emotional connection, gruesomeness, violence, darkness, a knack for surprise/twist...]. All he needs is a plotline, I guess...
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
"Perhaps this Fairytale-ishness was the thing that "ruined" the story for some people? I think I just thought of it as the plot was part of SRD's tongue-in-cheek humor.
"
It's a nice antidote to the relentless grimness of TCoTC. Perhaps SRD wrote it to expunge Covenant from his system for awhile. Or better still, Linden.
"
It's a nice antidote to the relentless grimness of TCoTC. Perhaps SRD wrote it to expunge Covenant from his system for awhile. Or better still, Linden.
A copious vocabulary is no substitute for intelligence.
It's a nice antidote to the relentless grimness of TCoTC. Perhaps SRD wrote it to expunge Covenant from his system for awhile. Or better still, Linden.Perhaps this Fairytale-ishness was the thing that "ruined" the story for some people? I think I just thought of it as the plot was part of SRD's tongue-in-cheek humor.
A copious vocabulary is no substitute for intelligence.
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Cord Hurn
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I think the ending was a bit more realistic than the traditional fairy-tale ending. Nyle will probably never completely get over being repeatedly raped by Gilbur. Many people in Mordant, even children and babies, likely died as a result of Imagery abominations coming out of nowhere and attacking them. And Master Quillon, Castellans Lebbick and Norge, Ribuld, the Perdon and his soldiers, and the Tor don't survive the story. A nice ending? Yes. A perfect fairy-tale ending? NO.
