President Trump

[Skyweir]

After years of Obama lecturing us about how much we suck, I'm glad we have a President who is pro-America. There is nothing patriotic about disrespecting our flag/anthem. In my mind, it's an inauthentic absurdity to use your free speech to attack the very thing that gives you that right. It would be more useful, consistent, and less divisive to dial it in and name specific grievances, instead of the one thing that supposed to unite us all as Americans.

Note that the discussion is entirely missing the very aspects that the athletes are allegedly protesting. No one is debating police brutality or racism, we're talking about a bunch of rich athletes complaining how bad their country is, and whether or not they should be fired. Their protest is stupid and counter-productive. They are destroying the very fan base that empowers them. They are insulting the people who pay their checks.

And now it has even become anti-Trump. This is a dumb way to get their point across. Their point is entirely lost.

Wow .. you really have been swept off your feet by Trumpism! There was no disrespect to your flag or your anthem... kneeling is not a sign of disrespect! To my mind sticking up your middle finger would be a disrespect.. dropping your baby's and mooning your hairy ass in the general direction of the flag or Teump would be a disrespect! Trump is weighing in inappropriately on the peaceful but pointed message against racism and police brutality. Kneeling is a submissive gesture, not a gesture of disrespect! Only Trump and Trumpists see the world in this way. His supporters are lapping up his inappropriately abusive rhetoric!

To my mind Trump is doing more harm than good for the US, his messaging is subversive and is sorely divisive ..

[Zarathustra]

Wow .. you really have been swept off your feet by Trumpism!

Trumpism isn't a thing. You're speaking jibberish. I have been disgusted with the NFL protests long before Trump weighed in. It has nothing to do with him.

Trump is weighing in inappropriately on the peaceful but pointed message against racism and police brutality.

Presidents have no business weighing in on the issues of racism and police brutality? Funny how that just became a thing in 2017 and never was before Trump got elected.

To my mind Trump is doing more harm than good for the US, his messaging is subversive and is sorely divisive ..

Only in the bizarro world of Lefties is patriotism subversive and divisive!

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Let's not make this personal, okay?

The original football kneeler started his schtick last year during the Obama Administration and he was trying to draw attention to police brutality and the unhealthy relationship between black citizens and police. What started as a cutting edge cultural statement has become mainstream, is quickly reaching the saturation point, after which it will transition to meme (private citizens will begin putting up video clips of themselves kneeling in front of American flags wherever they find them, including graveyards) and finally parody (people making a bad joke or bad pun resulting in others kneeling, people winning a round of miniature golf resulting in a kneel, people making a difficult frisbee golf shot resulting in a kneel, people kneeling in front of random strangers wearing a shirt with an American flag on it).

The ironic thing is that in times past kneeling was a sign of greater respect and deference as compared to standing. If people reversed the trend and everyone started kneeling for the national anthem this would completely take away any protest power kneeling has--the people wanting to protest would have to do something else.

Anyway, once kneeling his the parody point it will disappear relatively quickly just like planking, dabbing, ice bucket challenges, and Kony 2012 did.

[Zarathustra]

Regarding the disingenuous, "It's not disrespectful to kneel," BS ... in Kaepernick's own words:

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color.

That was his explanation for kneeling back in 2016, when he first decided to do it. Clearly, this is more than simply trying to highlight the problem of racism. You can highlight that problem without tying it to your attitude towards America in general. For instance, Americans have a problem with obesity. Would it make much sense for me to refuse to stand for the anthem because of this nationwide health issue? Or for me to blame the health issue on the country where it happens to exist? Nope. Obesity and the national anthem aren't linked in any way whatsoever.

So why does it make sense to link the anthem with racism? Well, Kaepernick is literally saying the country oppresses black people, as if it's an official policy of the U.S. government (which has in its Constitution protection against just that).

And no one on the Left is even questioning whether that accusation makes sense. They take it at face value because they similarly disrespect America. They act like Kaepernick is some kind of hero for calling their country racist, and shocked that anyone would take offense at this ludicrous notion. The leader of our nation at that time was a black President, btw. As the leader of the country that "oppresses black people," was Obama oppressing black people? Who exactly was doing this? Local police officers don't run the country, much less represent us on a national scale.

Kaepernick isn't merely highlighting a problem, he's making bizarre negative value judgment of the place where that problem exists (even though it exists everywhere, in every country on earth). And people think that Trump's comments were divisive?? Why don't they see that it's divisive to blame racism on an entire country, given how many people in this country aren't racists??

To say, "I'm not going to show pride for America," is the equivalent of saying, "I disrespect America." To deny this is, as I said above, disingenuous bullshit.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Kaepernick isn't merely highlighting a problem, he's making bizarre negative value judgment of the place where that problem exists (even though it exists everywhere, in every country on earth). And people think that Trump's comments were divisive?? Why don't they see that it's divisive to blame racism on an entire country, given how many people in this country aren't racists??

This distills the essence of the counterargument nicely. The only point you fail to raise is that not only does racism exist in every country, in many countries racism is significantly worse than it is in even the most racist corners of the United States. A quick Internet search into countries like India, China, Japan, and Saudi Arabia will detail dozens of stories of people suffering all sorts of atrocities based solely on their skin color or ethnicity, atrocities which are significantly worse than presuming that you got pulled over for "driving while black".

As I said earlier, this whole kneeling thing is going to get out of hand, hit the saturation point, then go from meme to parody to being forgotten as a fad. Consider this young man from the University of Michigan. He knelt for 20 hours because he thinks we (the collective "we") should be better than we are...and we should. However, he states that he was prepared to kneel until "there is nothing left in me". He remained kneeling for 20 hours.

Now, 20 hours on your knees is probably rough, especially if you don't take any bathroom breaks (the story doesn't say if he did, or if he had food/water brought to him). Still, this is another case of "first world problems"--he is a graduate student at an American University. He skipped classes and work, which means that he really didn't give up anything truly important or vital, but makes it seem as if that were some sort of sacrifice.

Anyway....see? I told you it would become a meme.

[Skyweir]

Trumpism is a thing - I would wager it's more than just a passive expression these days... live with it

Oh so Trump is not interfering with the NFL by calling them to sack those sons of bitches? Or calling on fans not to attend games?

So as president what has he had to say about racism and police brutality? I can think of some very racist statements he's made and examples of what he thinks about police brutality!

Really? Really .. re: the NFL players what has he had to say?

As for subversive - the way he is calling for fans to boycott games undermines the sport - thought that was obvious myself .. and as for divisive .. he is polarising the US populous on matters of race, politics, immigration .. pretty much every offensive thing he says is divisive! And where was he when he said all this stuff? Alabama - where he knows he has leverage and people's ire is already fanned! He's like a flame to an explosives bunker!

[peter]

The fault lines in American society are widening almost daily and Trump seems to be doing everything he can to make matters worse. Far from 'making America great again' he risks bringing it to his knees. I love America and the American people - but I say unconditionally that I think it was a mistake to elect that man, and it is a mistake to still be following him. History will be the judge on this, but meanwhile you guys will pay the price - and quite possibly the rest of us as well.

[Zarathustra]

Skyweir, rich/famous sport stars disrespecting our country is already divisive before Trump says a word. Our country is what we all have in common. Attacking the source of our national unity is *by definition* divisive--not divisive the way you're using it, which is merely "Trump said something I don't like." Based on your standard of "divisive," it wouldn't matter if Trump supported your side, or my side, you could call it "divisive" as long as someone disagreed. This is the mindset that develops in a progressive culture where people have become highly sensitized and intolerant of opinions that don't conform to their own, people who need "safe spaces" to protect them from ideas they don't like.

Just because you disagree with a position doesn't mean it is itself "divisive." The majority of people in America agree with Trump! How can he be accused of being "divisive" when he's speaking for the majority?

I can think of some very racist statements he's made ...

No you can't. If you could, you would have listed one to prove your point. You have an impression that he has made racists statements because you mindlessly believe what your liberal media tells you. But you can't actually produce an example of a racist statement that Trump has made. Go ahead. I dare you. Back up your own accusation.

The fault lines in American society are widening almost daily and Trump seems to be doing everything he can to make matters worse. Far from 'making America great again' he risks bringing it to his knees. I love America and the American people - but I say unconditionally that I think it was a mistake to elect that man, and it is a mistake to still be following him. History will be the judge on this, but meanwhile you guys will pay the price - and quite possibly the rest of us as well.

Speaking as an American, I think that your impression is a caricature. The "fault lines" are just as wide as they have always been. People boycotting sports isn't a prelude to societal collapse. Obama did far worse to divide this country by siding with criminal and thugs and undermining our laws and traditions.

Trump has done more to make America Great Again than anything in the last 8 years. All the executive orders that he has rescinded and the business killing regulations that he has ended has kick started the American economy to more growth that we saw under the previous President. This "bringing America to its knees" idea is so far from reality, I honestly have no idea how to respond. Is that a Kaepernick joke?

The media is over 90% negative in its coverage of Trump. You guys got to start thinking for yourselves and stop believing what teleprompter readers on TV tell you. It's not true.

[aTOMiC]

I'm not defending Donald Trump but some of the comments I've read surprise me a bit.

There hasn't been a single United States President that hasn't been divisive to some part of the populous.

Ask any British loyalist what they thought of George Washington.
Ask any Southern plantation owner what they thought of Abraham Lincoln.
Ask any American pacifist what they thought of Franklin Roosevelt.
Ask any American Communist what they thought of Harry Truman.
Ask any fired American Air Traffic Controller what they thought of Ronald Reagan.
Ask ANY liberal Democrat what they thought of Bush 43.
Ask any coal miner what they thought of Obama.

I'm sure if I made an effort I would be able to find some large voting block that was pissed off by the speech or actions of every single U. S. President.

There are times during some presidencies that everyone quiets down and agrees as a whole nation. Pearl Harbor, the end of J.F.K., 911 etc but those moments don't happen that often and it is more likely that the majority of a presidency is spent clashing with opponents of one sort or another.

Again I'm not defending Trump per se but when a president makes a speech or is recorded commenting on something 9 times out of 10 he or she is pissing somebody, somewhere off and most of the time they are lots of somebodies. But that's the job.

You may respond by saying that Trump is unusual because he's such a giant ass-basket and a blowhard etc. I would respond by saying that I'm sure other people throughout history thought their giant ass-basket was the absolute worst president imaginable too.

We are and have always been free to comment, complain, protest, argue and even riot at times when we don't like what a president says and that's one of the reasons that America is so special.

We've survived every other U.S. President and we will be just fine during and after Trump's time has passed.

But that of course doesn't mean everyone has to like it.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

We've survived every other U.S. President and we will be just fine during and after Trump's time has passed.

But that of course doesn't mean everyone has to like it.

This.

The person who occupies the Oval Office generally has very little to do with an average citizen's daily life...except in cases when military people are called upon for deployment. No, Congress and the Supreme Court have much more influence on your day-to-day life than the President ever does.

As I have told people elsewhere, Trump will be a one-termer so just suck it up for 4 years and get over it.

edit/add

Down in Alabama, Roy Moore defeated Luther Strange in a runoff election to fill the Senate seat vacated by Jeff Sessions. Trump had been supporting Strange...but in a bizarre chickenshit maneuver he spent late Tuesday night deleting old tweets stating his support for Strange. I guess Trump doesn't like to back a loser? *shrug*

[Zarathustra]

Good points Tom. Sure, I'll admit that Trump is more crass than other Presidents, but If any other Republican candidate had won, we'd be having the same conversation with a different name. Jeb Bush would have been called "divisive" and accused of "destroying America."

I agree Hashi that the President has almost zero effect on our daily lives ... that is, unless he abuses his power to force us to buy things we don't want, or uses the IRS to stop us from forming political groups to oppose him.

Has Trump actually done anything--in terms of policy that has a tangible effect on people's lives--that the Dems/Left/Progressives dislike? As far as I can tell, the only bad thing he's done (from their perspective) is say things they don't like. I can't believe how upset one side of the spectrum gets from words.

Seriously, can the Trump bashers name a single Trump policy that impacts them negatively?

Down in Alabama, Roy Moore defeated Luther Strange in a runoff election to fill the Senate seat vacated by Jeff Sessions. Trump had been supporting Strange...but in a bizarre chickenshit maneuver he spent late Tuesday night deleting old tweets stating his support for Strange. I guess Trump doesn't like to back a loser? *shrug*

Is it chickenshit? Or is it a unity move intended to smooth things over and make it easier on Moore? Trump isn't shy about speaking his mind. He's not chickenshit.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

If he is deleting old tweets, that qualifies as "chickenshit" in my book. If I say something and I later turn out to be wrong I will own it. Trump can't own that.

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

Mere rituals, social as ever, don't seem... IDK... like, why don't we stand for the recitation of some part of the Constitution, or something? Symbolic respect for a symbol, as a semi-litmus test of something or other, well...

[Cail]

Not entirely related, but....

Michelle Obama scolds female Trump voters.

I wonder if she feels the same way about women who voted for her husband in 2008?

[Zarathustra]

It's so insulting for Michelle to suggest that Hillary speaks for all women. What about women who disagree with her? Does she speak for them, too? I didn't realize that vaginas were fungible, that any vagina-wielding human elected to office automatically speaks for all the other vagina-wielding humans, regardless of political views. You hear that women? Your views don't matter. Only your genitals. So insulting.

This is how progressives think. You are a classification, a demographic, and the Democrat party "owns" certain ones (well, all of them except white men, basically). Democrat ideology is the essence of divisive. Rather than viewing us as Americans, we are broken down into classes and pitted against each other. And if you vote in a way that transcends their expectations for how a woman should think, you will be chastised on the basis of your sex.

Mere rituals, social as ever, don't seem... IDK... like, why don't we stand for the recitation of some part of the Constitution, or something? Symbolic respect for a symbol, as a semi-litmus test of something or other, well...

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. Symbols are shortcuts, proxies. I assume that the flag stands for many things, including the Constitution. It's the troops, our freedoms, our ideals, our national unity, our values.

If symbolic respect for a symbol is silly, then so is symbolic disrespect for a symbol.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

The other problem with the Democratic Party "owning" certain demographic groups is that it has a horrible track record at treating those groups with any sort of respect. The Democratic Party purports to support black people and that it wants to lift them up...yet Democrats ran Detroit into the ground for so long that it became the largest municipal bankruptcy case in the history of the world. The Democrats have turned Chicago and Baltimore into cities which are always on the list of Top 5 Murder Capitals in the United States (possibly even the world). Democratic policies towards government aid have kept some black people just as shackled to poverty as their ancestors might have been in the Antebellum Deep South--the poorest section of the entire South (in Mississippi west of I-55 all the way to the river, north of I-20 all the way up to the border with Tennessee) votes overwhelming Democratic and has for decades...yet it remains astonishingly impoverished. The only people who have it worse than they do are the First Nations on some reservations.

Anyway...nothing keeps under-educated people voting for you like instilling the fear of the other party in their head. Remember--all Republicans are rich white men (or are married to rich white men) and they all hate poor people, including my wife (who is neither male nor rich--she officially joined last the Republican Party last year).

No, Michelle did not feel that way about women who voted for her husband back in 2008 because when comparing demographic groups skin color trumps gender--it was more important for Democrats to vote "black" as opposed to "female".

[Avatar]

Nope, don't remember such a post about exploitation.

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1026744#1026744

--A

[kevinswatch]

As I have told people elsewhere, Trump will be a one-termer so just suck it up for 4 years and get over it.

Amen.

As someone once allegedly said, what a moron.

-jay

[Skyweir]

Nope, don't remember such a post about exploitation.

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1026744#1026744

--A

LOL

The value of being consistent and frequent KW resident and visitor and possessing a bear trap memory!

[Skyweir]

If he is deleting old tweets, that qualifies as "chickenshit" in my book. If I say something and I later turn out to be wrong I will own it. Trump can't own that.

Agreed

Very poor form