Insanity of the Left

[Cail]

Consenting adults" is the key phrase. Selling a baby is a no-no.

There are other threads for the abortion discussion, but suffice it to say that I don't believe in killing babies, ether prenatally or postnatally.

Right on.

I'm not sure it's going to be as abused as some I've read think, but I can see the obvious potential for abuse, sure enough.

Anything can be abused. Whether or not something might be abused should have no bearing on whether or not people should be permitted to do something.

People drink and drive all the time, but there's no national conversation about outlawing wither booze or cars.

If you don't have the right to determine what happens to your body, then are you truly free?

[balon!]

Anything can be abused. Whether or not something might be abused should have no bearing on whether or not people should be permitted to do something.

People drink and drive all the time, but there's no national conversation about outlawing wither booze or cars.

If you don't have the right to determine what happens to your body, then are you truly free?

Right, I'm in agreement that abuse can happen with almost anything, Fast Food is another good example. Seems different to me though, when it starts to involve another human life. (Like you said about drinking and driving. Not sure what the punishment should be, but I think it should be really severe.) Only recently have I started to change my opinion on matters involving an unborn human, I still haven't hashed it out. (Like many others, Im sure.)

I think the argument here is all about phrasing. I've read people who say that "surrogate mothers deserve to be paid for their labour." But I also read an account of two dudes who were charged because they bought some babies specifically for their sex ring. *shudder*

If someone wants to get fucked up eating McDonalds every single day, until they die, whatever. But I don't think that's in the same category as literally selling babies. Like you said, it's about consent. But who decides what the kids consent is? I doubt anyone would argue that a kid would eventually grow up and WANT to be sold into a pedo ring.

[Cail]

I think we're mixing up two, maybe three things.

- I believe that a woman (or man) should be able to profit from renting her (or his) body. If she's willing to spend 9 months pregnant with a kid she knows she'll be giving up, then why shouldn't she profit from that.

- I don't believe that people should be able to buy (or breed) babies for sex. But that's possible now under the current laws.

- Believing that someone should be able to profit from renting their bodies doesn't preclude some sort of regulation or oversight.

[balon!]

See, I gotta spend more time in the Tank! I absolutely agree with you on all three of these points.

It was shocking to see the Dems in my state throw out any kind of oversight to make it harder to abuse this new change to the law. Definitely some overtones of "if you don't agree with this then you must be a ___" (bigot, woman hater, fascist, etc...)

Events like this are why I'm now waaaaay more "Right" than I was when I was younger. As long as things like this keep getting passed, it'll continue to push folks like me away.

[Cail]

You'll find that many of us here default to, "People have the right to......" And the only stipulation is that no one else's rights are infringed upon.

You and your same-sex spouse want to defend your pot plants with an AR-15? No problem with this guy.

[Revan]

open libertarianism would be as hellish as socialism without some moral compass to guide it... just sayin'

[Cail]

open libertarianism would be as hellish as socialism without some moral compass to guide it... just sayin'

Perhaps. We'll never know.

[Skyweir]

open libertarianism would be as hellish as socialism without some moral compass to guide it... just sayin'

Well described .. I think that completely embodies my concerns with libertarianism

[Hashi Lebwohl]

See, I gotta spend more time in the Tank!

Everyone should spend more time in the Tank.

As far as "open libertarianism" is concerned I have three comments: 1) there is no such thing as "pure" insert political -ism, 2) even if that did exist every system would be a disaster if we tried it for real, and 3) all things in moderation.

People who are not already Libertarian often describe all Libertarians as if we were mostly-anarchist, sovereign-citizen-type fringe nut jobs. Actual Libertarians are really just anti-Nanny State people--the government cannot tell you who you may marry, the government cannot tell you what chemicals you will ingest/smoke/inject, the government cannot tell you what you may do with your own back yard, etc. While you are exercising your rights, though, just be careful not to step on someone else's rights.

Morpheus from the Matrix was a Libertarian. Remember:

Commander Lock: Goddamnit--not everyone believes what you believe.

Morpheus: My beliefs do not require them to.

[Revan]

See, I gotta spend more time in the Tank!

Everyone should spend more time in the Tank.

As far as "open libertarianism" is concerned I have three comments: 1) there is no such thing as "pure" insert political -ism, 2) even if that did exist every system would be a disaster if we tried it for real, and 3) all things in moderation.

People who are not already Libertarian often describe all Libertarians as if we were mostly-anarchist, sovereign-citizen-type fringe nut jobs. Actual Libertarians are really just anti-Nanny State people--the government cannot tell you who you may marry, the government cannot tell you what chemicals you will ingest/smoke/inject, the government cannot tell you what you may do with your own back yard, etc. While you are exercising your rights, though, just be careful not to step on someone else's rights.

Morpheus from the Matrix was a Libertarian. Remember:

Commander Lock: Goddamnit--not everyone believes what you believe.

Morpheus: My beliefs do not require them to.

Then they should call themselves minarchists.

[Avatar]

Libertarians are just anarchists who want police protection.

--A

[Skyweir]

[Revan]

Libertarians are just anarchists who want police protection.

--A

I wish to publicly state for the record that this post amused and pleased me.

[Cail]

Libertarians are just anarchists who want police protection.

That actually couldn't be further than the truth, but it's a popular bumper-sticker slogan, so those who can't be bothered to learn what Libertarians are have something pithy-sounding to say.

Anarchists want no social order whatsoever. "Sovereign Citizens" and all that. Most Libertarians look at anarchists like lost children. Libertarians are all about laws and government, as long as those laws and that government ensure the individual liberties of the populace.

[Zarathustra]

Everyone is a "libertarian" when it comes to the things they want to be free to do. True Libertarians just extend this beyond themselves to everyone else, out of respect and ideological consistency.

Everyone agrees that freedom is great, until you see someone doing something you don't like. Then you become a authoritarian. The only reason anyone ever advocates more government power is to limit and control others, not themselves. Thus, all other political systems are hypocritical and authoritarian. The drive behind Libertarianism is the universal human longing to be free. The only reason everyone is not a Libertarian is because some people--in addition to this longing--also want to control. It is this paradox and contradiction that causes so much confusion and polarization in our country.

[Revan]

Everyone is a "libertarian" when it comes to the things they want to be free to do. True Libertarians just extend this beyond themselves to everyone else, out of respect and ideological consistency.

Everyone agrees that freedom is great, until you see someone doing something you don't like. Then you become a authoritarian. The only reason anyone ever advocates more government power is to limit and control others, not themselves. Thus, all other political systems are hypocritical and authoritarian. The drive behind Libertarianism is the universal human longing to be free. The only reason everyone is not a Libertarian is because some people--in addition to this longing--also want to control. It is this paradox and contradiction that causes so much confusion and polarization in our country.

Thoroughly disagree that the desire to be free is a universal longing in humans... many seem quite comfortable with chains and tyranny.

[Zarathustra]

Name one.

[Cail]

Name one.

The EU.

[Revan]

Name one.

Do you think any number of tyrannies throughout history could have been established without any kind of support?

If the desire to be free were universal then all form of governance would be universally freedom loving ones.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Everyone is a "libertarian" when it comes to the things they want to be free to do. True Libertarians just extend this beyond themselves to everyone else, out of respect and ideological consistency.

Everyone agrees that freedom is great, until you see someone doing something you don't like. Then you become a authoritarian. The only reason anyone ever advocates more government power is to limit and control others, not themselves. Thus, all other political systems are hypocritical and authoritarian. The drive behind Libertarianism is the universal human longing to be free. The only reason everyone is not a Libertarian is because some people--in addition to this longing--also want to control. It is this paradox and contradiction that causes so much confusion and polarization in our country.

For someone who does not self-identify as Libertarian, you certainly describe it with complete accuracy.

As far as "Libertarians are anarchists who want police protection"...well, those two things are mutually exclusive--anarchists don't want police at all.

Of course tyrannical governments often have support--many people would prefer a harsh dictator with a draconian government because then they don't have to think a lot of time, only do what they are told. Most people are also lazy, so this makes sense.