President Trump

[Kizza]

So the Philly Eagles have had too many players mouth off that they will not be visiting the White House with the team for the annual Superbowl Champs visit, and now Trump has cancelled the whole thing. I don't know how many players were not planning on attending in the first place.
The president has taken the higher ground in what he has made a point for debate with the national anthem front and center as the topic.
I thought the kneeling by NFL players was a silent reminder about racial vilification, which they seem to believe is still going on in America.
Has Trump taken the popular view here? Why would the president ignore the racism point and deflect into the importance of the anthem? Then ride off on his horse and cancel the whole visit? Down here at the end of the world that kind of behaviour would incite a riot.

[peter]

In the UK kneeling is taken as a sign of respect, as in when you pray or meet the queen etc. Is it not the same in the USA? Why would it be problematic to do so during the national anthem, even if it were to draw attention to an ongoing problem. Even sitting it out to make such a point is a valid peaceful means of making your point. Trump the narcissist is much more likely to be stung by the idea that numbers of the team would eschew the opportunity to appear on his show, and to preempt this deflation of his ego by pretending to take the high ground over the anthem and cancelling the event himself before this embarrassment arrises.

[Gaius Octavius]

My thoughts exactly, Peter. When I played football in high school, we always kneeled when praying after a game (Lord's Prayer recited by whole team).

Kneeling is a sign of respect here like in the UK, but the norm for national anthems is to stand up straight and place your hand over your heart. Anything outside of that norm could be seen as a snub of the anthem.

[Skyweir]

And yet to snub respectfully.. though tbh there is no way these players are non patriotic.. and thats the point to my mind.

It is a deeper sign of respect here too. Maybe everyone should kneel

[Avatar]

Ha, no chance. (We don't put our hands on our hearts either...stand at attention...leftover from military influence I guess.)

(Also, I thought commoners didn't kneel to the queen...only bow. Just nobility kneels IIRC.) (Could be wrong?)

--A

[Skyweir]

Really? Does it even matter? Its a sign of respect .. kowtowing is also a sign of respect.

[Avatar]

I don't respect anybody enough to get down on my knees. I might incline my head though.

--A

[Skyweir]

Whatever floats your boat Av

[Ur Dead]

The kneeling issue I personally found as an affront. You have people being paid large sums of money acting like two bit activists. They want to bring to light the
injustices that are in the US. Well a few things I like to point out:

The people KNOW about the issues. They get hammered 5 to 6 days a week
about it by the press. They want a few hours to watch an event on TV and forget
about the worlds problems. Yet now it 7 days a week.

The players are doing it while they are contracted to preform an action and being paid a salary. You do something like that during your work hours and they fire you for stealing money on company time. Why should the players
be so special.
If they want to protest any issue, I have no problem, Let them do it during their own free time, paying for any expense out of their own past hard
earned large sums of money that is in their own pockets.
Maybe some people will take notice and not have a enclosed crowd who are paying their money and forced to see protests when they are at a sporting event.

Then many of them declare they will not go to the White House.. That is their right. Why should the government spent the taxpayers money to host a party for large salary sport figures who work for a private company.
Frankly I would stop all professional sports teams from having such parties
at government expense. They want a party let the players pay for it.

Kneeling is not a sign of respect in the US during public festive events. It defines submission. The country was founded on a core principle that no one was above the other. Standing in a near attention during the national anthem
is defining equal but recognition of the country. For those who fell in service to preserve the the country and way of life.

let me try to put it in a Brit's perspective:

Man U footballers turn their back on the Union Jack , expose their buttocks while "God save the Queen" is being played. Their reason: They want the monarchy to be ended. What would your reaction be?

Now Man U wins the world cup(somehow) and is invited to meet the Queen. Half the team publicly states they won't attend to meet the old biddy.
OK.. now the crown withdraws the invite..
So how would this affect the normal Brit?

[Hashi Lebwohl]

These players weren't kneeling when Obama was President and abuses against blacks by police were taking place--I guess it wasn't an important issue to them a mere 2 years ago. No, they are kneeling in protest now only because Trump won the election.

I treat athletes the same way I do other celebrities--they get to have an opinion just like I do and I ignore their opinion just like they ignore mine.

Meanwhile, Trump is considering a handful of new pardons, including one for Alice Johnson (currently in prison for her 1996 conviction on cocaine possession and money laundering....which was her first criminal offense ever); Kim Kardashian-West met with Trump only last week to address that individual case. Other potential pardons involve Martha Stewart and Rod Blagojevich (former governor of Illinois who basically tried to sell Obama's vacated Senate seat).

I cannot wait until he starts handing out pardons for people who have been found guilty in connection with the Mueller Investigation....

[Savor Dam]

These players weren't kneeling when Obama was President and abuses against blacks by police were taking place--I guess it wasn't an important issue to them a mere 2 years ago. No, they are kneeling in protest now only because Trump won the election.

Actually, the National Anthem protests were already well-established by November 2016 when DJT was elected.

Colin Kaepernick (San Francisco 49ers) started sitting through the anthem from the first preseason game on August 14. He switched to kneeling for the last preseason game on September 1 and was joined by Eric Reed (49ers) and Jeremy Lane (Seattle Seahawks).

In the first week of the regular season, eleven players took part in the protests. This continued and grew over the next two months - all prior to the unexpected outcome of Election Day. Yes, the results of the election and the rhetoric of the President-elect further accelerated matters, but to represent these protests as only a thinly-veiled swipe at Trump is inaccurate and diminishes what the players intended by taking these actions.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

These players weren't kneeling when Obama was President and abuses against blacks by police were taking place--I guess it wasn't an important issue to them a mere 2 years ago. No, they are kneeling in protest now only because Trump won the election.

Actually, the National Anthem protests were already well-established by November 2016 when DJT was elected.

Kaepernick (San Francisco 49ers) started sitting through the anthem from the first preseason game on August 14. He switched to kneeling for the last preseason game on September 1 and was joined by Eric Reed (49ers) and Jeremy Lane (Seattle Seahawks).

In the first week of the regular season, eleven players took part in the protests. This continued and grew over the next two months - all prior to the unexpected outcome of Election Day. Yes, the results of the election and the rhetoric of the President-elect further accelerated matters, but to represent these protests as only a thinly-veiled swipe at Trump is inaccurate and diminishes what the players intended by taking these actions.

Yeah when one of your tactics is to appear persecuted and fight back it kind of accelerates the whole situation and warps the conversation. The endless abuses and humiliations against people of color in the united states is very bipartisan - the worst abuses happen in dem run cities.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

These players weren't kneeling when Obama was President and abuses against blacks by police were taking place--I guess it wasn't an important issue to them a mere 2 years ago. No, they are kneeling in protest now only because Trump won the election.

Actually, the National Anthem protests were already well-established by November 2016 when DJT was elected.

Colin Kaepernick (San Francisco 49ers) started sitting through the anthem from the first preseason game on August 14. He switched to kneeling for the last preseason game on September 1 and was joined by Eric Reed (49ers) and Jeremy Lane (Seattle Seahawks).

In the first week of the regular season, eleven players took part in the protests. This continued and grew over the next two months - all prior to the unexpected outcome of Election Day. Yes, the results of the election and the rhetoric of the President-elect further accelerated matters, but to represent these protests as only a thinly-veiled swipe at Trump is inaccurate and diminishes what the players intended by taking these actions.

Fair enough--since I don't pay attention to sports- or athlete-related news I was unaware of when kneeling actually began.

Still...kneeling for the anthem is as effective as liking something on Facebook--it takes no effort and has no effect.

JemCheeta--welcome to a new voice (not new to the Watch, only new to the Tank)--is correct: the quality of life for black Americas is worst in cities which have been run by Democrats for decades.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Ah actually I came back to the watch because I remembered one place on the internet where people had discussions that stayed vaguely civil on hot topics. This feels more snarky than I remembered but maybe that's rose colored glasses. I think I was pretty early in the think tank actually, this and the close used to be my every day haunt.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

A certain amount of snarkiness is expected, even encouraged, here--I am a firm believer that everyone should speak their mind, because if you aren't willing to say what is on your mind then why are you bothering to speak? There is an art to being straightforward, sometimes even a little blunt, without being offensive; I try to encourage that here.

[Rawedge Rim]

I personally find persons kneeling during a national anthem (or talking, grabassing, or otherwise being less than respectful and attentive) to be very distasteful and contemptuous of the occasion. And besides I'm not paying anywhere from $70 to $2000 a seat watch a protest, I paid to see millionaires play a freaking game for my entertainment.

Now if these same millionaires want to make a real difference, how about instead of the empty gesture of kneeling on the field, try giving real money towards funds that help combat abuse by police and others; say like the Legal Defense Fund. Maybe buy some commercials during NFL game time about the cause, show up at rallies, etc.

[Zarathustra]

Wow, a blast from the past! Haven't seen JemCheetah in a while. I seem to remember disagreeing a lot ... Anyway, it's always good to have more voices, especially those who disagree with me. The Tank has been becoming too much of an echo chamber in the last few years.

UrDead, good post!

The idea that kneeling during the anthem is a sign of respect is ridiculous. It wouldn't be a protest if it were a show of respect.

Kaepernick's own words on the issue:

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color,"

He very clearly is showing disrespect for the flag and our country. Sure, he thinks he has a good reason, but this is a clear signal that he is ashamed of our country and our flag, not respecting it.

This is a common trait of those on the Left. They are only proud of America when they are in power (as Michelle Obama infamously admitted). The rest of the time they are anti-American. Obama didn't represent America, he chastised, criticized, and apologized for it.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Kaepernick's own words on the issue:

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color,"

Kaepernick makes millions of dollars each year when he is actively playing football. He has no concept of what "oppression" actually means.

[peter]

I'm firmly of the view that football (UK or USA style) is as Orwell said "war without bullets" and this is merely confirmed by the jingoistic playing of anthems at the events which should be (as observed above) simply the light entertainment for which you are paying. I'm not a nationalist - it's oddly uncommon in the UK, some say born of the simple relaxation of the need which our long history has given us - and the idea of the Man U team exposing their buttocks to the queen causes me no concern other than worry for the results that such an exitatory act might have on a ninety year old woman. I'm not aware that these guys are shouting for the overthrow of the USA anyways, and you might as simply criticize the wearing of black by the ladies of the performing arts at the recent Oscars ceremony on the grounds that this too is a public event that people have paid to be at, or indeed the wearing of adverts on sports people's clothing - a similar introduction of 'something not paid for' and to which content you might particularly disagree.

[Skyweir]

Good point Pete and well made.

I think it is more difficult for us non US citizens to comprehend the outrage at to us a relatively simple and hardly disrespectful gesture .. ie kneeling.

To us it is not in the slightest bit disrespectful .. secondly we have a very different view of nationalism and patriotism that is clear is widely held in the US.

Its like a streaker running across the field during the opening of a cricket match at the MCG.. or Lords... even if they streaked across butt naked during an anthem .. we'd not take it in the slightest bit seriously. And a few of us might share a chuckle.

And good point SD .. its important to keep the nay sayers honest LOL .. hahaha .. Im kidding Hashi just good to be sure we have all the facts straight.