Hypocrisy?

[wayfriend]

Smart arse

Not really. THIS would be smart-arse: click this, Skyweir!

[Vraith]

Holocaust jokes, the n word, and yes, gross objectification of people.

Are you sure lines should be drawn? Who does it? And what is lost when you limit commentary and/or comedy to the approved list?
I mean, there's a thing about eating the babies of the poor to solve poverty and other problems.
It's classic and funny...but what's more objectifying than using poor folk to make babies food?
The n-word is involved in a host of very funny [and pointed] comedy/commentary.
There's this joke [RIPPED FROM THE HEADLINES, at the time, I shit you not]---
"20,000 women and children sought shelter from domestic violence today. 10,000 were turned away. But they all have one thing in common.

They JUST don't fucking LISTEN."

You don't ban the damn words, you fight the ideas. If you ban the n-word, you limit the folk you think you're helping, and the white racist scumfucks will just invent a new code that you'll have to ban. [[they already HAVE, as a matter of fact. And they're sneaky enough that they've convinced a lot of people those words are not as bad, not as vile, aren't "really" racist.]]

[Skyweir]

Ahhh I love Jonathan Swifts initiative lol Hilarious

Yeah good points V

[Avatar]

Sacred cows make the best burgers.

I'm personally of the opinion that nothing is off limits when it comes to making fun of something.

We have to be able to laugh at everything, no matter what. Especially ourselves.

I was so impressed when an Israeli illustrator, in response to the "International Holocaust Cartoon Competition" started by an Iranian newspaper (in the wake of the Muhammed cartoons controversy) created his own "Israeli Anti-Semitic Cartoons Contest."

He said "We'll show the world we can do the best, sharpest, most offensive Jew hating cartoons ever published! No Iranian will beat us on our home turf!"

Unfortunately I can't find the entry I thought best (it didn't win), but the point is that being able to laugh about even things that are terrible is a crucial part of overcoming them.

The day my mother died during heart surgery, somebody called me to ask how it went. My reply to them was that the operation had been a success, but the patient died.

--A

[Skyweir]

... and yet I feel terrible for chuckling at that .. sorry for your loss.

[Skyweir]

Smart arse

Not really. THIS would be smart-arse: click this, Skyweir!

No that was convenient lol THATs my preferred dissemination

LOLs

For the record I like Single Ladies but cant watch the choreography.. its been done to death cos Ive reached saturation point on that.

[wayfriend]

Are you sure lines should be drawn? Who does it? And what is lost when you limit commentary and/or comedy to the approved list?

Who wanted a line? Who suggested limiting speech? Straw man, dude.

There's nothing wrong with people saying "hey, that's not cool," in one form or another.

People who decry "thought police" always pretend that it's censorship. It's not. It's just people pointing things out. It's comments.

The people who want to convince you its censorship, on the other hand, are definitely pursuing a dangerous agenda. Basically, an agenda of defamation. They would like the people who stand up to discrimination, who stand up to physical abuse, or whatever, to be discounted. They don't want to come out and say, "Shut up, discrimination is cool." So instead they discredit the messengers. "Oh look, the thought police are going to tell everyone what they can say." Even though no one told anyone any such thing.

"Thought police". "Bleeding hearts". These are the signs of a campaign to protect these practices that people are speaking up against.

[Vraith]

Are you sure lines should be drawn? Who does it? And what is lost when you limit commentary and/or comedy to the approved list?

Who wanted a line?

Hah...don't get snooty with the snarkster, dude.
Peter wants a line, apparently.
What the hell else does...to quote peter...
"No - I think I agree with the fella - some things are just better off-limits all together. "
mean?

I think it's perfectly acceptable...hell, even nearly required...to say "Hey, that's not cool," or even stronger things, which is why I said...to quote me...
"you fight the ideas." [[and other things, too.]]

You can read better than you did. Now say you're sorry.

[wayfriend]

Saying something is "off-limits" is best interpreted as an admonition. "You should't say that." Like "You shouldn't tell your grandma to go suck an egg".

Having a line about what's nice or what's civil is not a line about what's allowed.

When you say "Who does it? And what is lost when you limit commentary and/or comedy to the approved list?" your responding as if he's requesting censorship. Your asking who has the power to censor, and how will they decide. Your baking in assumptions about what he said which he never actually did.

Yes. People try to redefine what is civil discourse. What used to be acceptable, some don't find it acceptable any more. Based on reasoning and evidence, mind you. This is permissible and healthy. Civil is what civil-ization agrees it is.

[Vraith]

Having a line about what's nice or what's civil is not a line about what's allowed.

your responding as if he's requesting censorship.

He IS requesting censorship, making a much stronger claim/statement than "don't be unkind."

He agreed with the idea that particular words should not be used, by anyone, ever. That they're bad always, in themselves, under any conditions. [which is false, of course]. The kind of should meant when saying should not kill, not should not be impolite/mean.
Note he said ALTOGETHER. And not only about particular words, but entire topics.
I have my own sensitive/careful while handling words...and words I will admonish others for in a few, some, or nearly all contexts. [[which is what you SHOULD do, as I said...though I mean admonish in a different mode, sometimes. The response isn't "you shouldn't say that," or any variation. The response is some variety of "Now I know you for the kind of human being you are."

It's not a goddamn strawman...it's a realistic reading of the statements and implications.
Peter might not have meant the strong version. Maybe he did just mean "nice/civilized people ought to avoid such," [since he does seem the nice-ish/sensitive to giving offense kind of guy].
And that's, in part, why I said what I did...to find out WHAT the lines were, IF they were. For clarification---because in the way presented, it is nothing like the mild "My dear, it just isn't done."

And the single most important point was that everyone can do exactly what he suggests and all you'll do is make people make up new fucking terrible words/codes...and they'll do it on purpose. So fight the IDEA, not the vocabulary.

[Avatar]

... and yet I feel terrible for chuckling at that .. sorry for your loss.

Don't. And yeah, it happens to everybody...we should probably get over it.

--A

[Skyweir]

LOL youre a hard fucker .. lol

But yeah we all got losses .. and we all got to make our peace with that. And as humans we all do

[Skyweir]

And you guys arguing about nothing. Youre kinda saying the same things.

No you cant define civility .. it is whats agreed upon at any given time. And it changes over time and depending on whats going on.

There are times for shoulds. Most dont like shoulds .. but sometimes you should speak up, you should say no.

Somethings are not appropriate, nor should they be. Theyre the things that a stand up comedian runs with and they fall flat... COS .. too soon or just not funny.

What we say matters. Language matters. How we communicate matters. And how our choice of words impacts on others matters.

[Vraith]

No you cant define civility ..

What we say matters. Language matters. How we communicate matters. And how our choice of words impacts on others matters.

On the second, of course. On the first---but people always do. But sometimes it's not for reasons but for bias or other funny things.
Like [this cracks me up. and based on real life]
Say you're a parent of a youngish kid sitting around with your friends and the kid comes in and says:
Mommy[daddy] I have to poop.
Daddy[mommy] I have to shit.
M/D I have to defecate.
The first is ok, the second not, the third ok, but your friends will think either you or the kid is pretty odd. Why? A lot of reasons...one of which is some conception of civility/politeness...but NONE of them are related to any inherent difference in the words or the facts.

Fun thing on civil and civilized/civilization:
If I say Stephen Miller is a toxic motherfucking racist scumsack who tries to compensate for his ultra-fragile ego/soul by streaming vile shit out of his mouth, and only an idiot or tribe-member would associate with him in a swamp let alone the White House....
Yea, I'm being uncivil with that...
But I am damn well, 100%, DEFENDING civilization. Because a decent civilization would never let that kind of being anywhere near a position of power/authority/policy influence.
civil/civilized/civilization have a complicated relationship, despite sharing roots.

[wayfriend]

You should not talk that way. It's demeaning to people with souls.

[Skyweir]

Ok this is probably not the time of the place .. but lol souls? What IS a soul?

But yeah agree in full .. maybe its an American sensibility thing .. but here a kid could say any of those things to his mum and dad .. and be 3 ways of right on the money and likely no one would bat an eye lid

[Avatar]

...they fall flat... COS .. too soon or just not funny.

Only "not funny" matters. no such thing as "too soon."

--A

[Skyweir]

If only that were true across the board

[Ur Dead]

Hypocrisy The gift that keeps coming back to haunt you.