The Impeachment Inquiry

[Hashi Lebwohl]

The only things the Russians have done in the last few years is cheat on the INF and fuck over Ukraine by taking Crimea, both of which Obama allowed/tolerated.

The only people who were watching the inquires were the ones who have already concluded that Trump is guilty and were just hoping to hear the smoking gun evidence for themselves.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

The House Intelligence Committee is being allowed to review Schiff's report before they vote to approve it tomorrow. The only question I have about allowing them to preview the report is this: how much of it is going to be selectively leaked to the media? I suppose I do have one other question, now that I think about it: how much of the report is Schiff, personally, going to leak?

The White House should continue to ignore the inquiry until it becomes actual Articles of Impeachment. Well, okay--they should ignore subpoenas but they should read everything which the committee says or leaks so they can prepare for it.

[Gaius Octavius]

I've tuned this whole debacle out already. Boring.

The Democrats are acting like Wile E. Coyote with Trump being the Roadrunner. *Beep* *Beep*

This impeachment brought to you by ACME.

[Avatar]

I've tuned this whole debacle out already. Boring.

Yeah, same.

--A

[Hashi Lebwohl]

For those who are interested, the report may be found here; if you scroll to the bottom there are links from which to download the report itself, should you want to have a copy.

The report, in its preface, quotes both Alexander Hamilton and Associate Justice James Wilson when they were discussing impeachment; however, those two quotes are not Constititional law but opinions. The main argument boils down to this:

President Trump, personally and acting through agents within and outside of the U.S. government, solicited the interference of a foreign government, Ukraine, to benefit his reelection. In furtherance of this scheme, President Trump conditioned official acts on a public announcement by the new Ukrainian President, Volodymyr Zelensky, of politically-motivated investigations, including one into President Trump's domestic political opponent. In pressuring President Zelensky to carry out his demand, President Trump withheld a White House meeting desperately sought by the Ukrainian President, and critical U.S. military assistance to fight Russian aggression in eastern Ukraine.

This is load of bullshit, mostly because Sondland stated, quite plainly, that Trump told him that he did not want anything from Ukraine *and* the military aid did get approved and funded with no investigation into Hunter Biden--who is *not* Trump's political opponent, by the way.

"The President's request for a political favor." Okay--was the favor granted? No? Then what is the big deal? It isn't like Trump paid to have a foreign operative dig up unverified dirt of a scandalous and salacious nature against his political opponent--no, the DNC did that with Steele. 99.99% of all diplomatic talks are of the "I'll do you a favor if you do me a favor" variety--this is called "business as usual" and everyone does it.

The President recalled Ambassador Yovanovitch. Guess what? The POTUS runs the State Department and all ambassadors serve--or do not serve--at his discretion. Oh, and the POTUS does not have to explain his reasons why he fires an ambassador--they report to him, not the American people.

The President conditioned a White House meeting with Zelensky on investigations into Hunter Biden's activities. Is this anything like the "pay to play" way the Clintons ran their White House and how Hillary ran the State Department? Donations to the Clinton Foundation spiked during Hillary's term as SecState and dropped off sharply once she left the political arena--no one wants to contribute buckets of cash when they can't get any good return on their investment in the form of powerful politial favors.

I really love section 2, "The President Obstructed the Impeachment Inquiry by Instructing Witnesses and Agencies to Ignore Subpoenas for Documents and Testimony". Let me condense it for you: the House of Representatives got butt-hurt that Trump was telling people not to comply with inquiry-based subpoenas. That's it. The phrase I heard today on the radio was "obstruction of Congress"....which is not a crime. An inquiry is not a "justice" matter and it is not a fully official investigation, which would carry some weight. Go pout in the corner, Schiff.

If you think you have the goods with which to impeach Trump, then fucking impeach him already. Hurry up and get it over with, so the trial portion can begin, the Senate can take a whole week before voting not to remove Trump from office, and we can put all this shit behind us once and for all.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

The far more salient point is that for a year and a half, former president Obama did nothing at all to aid Ukraine. Trump's the one who initiated their support.

[SoulBiter]

Anyone watching the hearing? Interesting information, but mostly its a crock. Note that the Democrats made sure to put way more Democrats than Republicans in voting positions. So anytime there is a vote for anything, the Dems will get their way. Every vote is on party lines... period.

Nadler in asking his questions, does not ask open questions, he asks questions that in the very question intimates guilt.

At the end of this, they will vote for impeachment because everyone in that room has made up their mind and frankly they are at a point where they are "in for a penny, in for a pound". This will fail in the Senate, regardless of whatever is presented unless they truly have a "silver bullet" that everyone agrees on both sides.

[wayfriend]

The far more salient point is that for a year and a half, former president Obama did nothing at all to aid Ukraine. Trump's the one who initiated their support.

I have never seen any factual evidence to back this up. (Is there ever any?)

Factual evidence suggests that Trump doesn't know anything about the details of foreign policy or anything else. He's an anti-wonk in the extreme. Certainly the aid was released when and how Congress chose, as they were the ones who appropriated the money and wrote the bill directing the President to deliver it. I am sure they consulted with the US foreign service, and possibly it was related to a reformer being elected as president of Ukraine.

Then again, "Trump sent more aid than Obama" has been flying around the echo chamber for weeks now. Someone seems to think this translates to "Trump is innocent." Probably you are only repeating this, and have no way to support this with facts, nor do you even see a reason to. Nor may you aware how this is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand - as far from salient as it can possibly get.

And by the way, Trump isn't fit to wipe the floor Obama walked on.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I cannot wait for the Senate to exonerate Trump and leave him in office. What will Democrats do then, whine some more?

I also cannot wait for the Senate to subpoena Eric Ciaramella, the whistleblower, and ask him the same kind of questions Democrats are asking. "So, did you speak with the POTUS before or after you stopped heating your wife?"

[SoulBiter]

It was interesting to get the input from Constitutional Scholars. While they all agreed that offenses do not have to be criminal to rise to the level of impeachment. They also all agreed that the Congress has every right to impeach and has wide latitude to set the rules by which the impeachment investigation, inquiry and vote is taken. One interesting tidbit that one of them brought up is that what is going on now is one of the things that Hamilton was worried about with that power. Basically by using the majority to tie up a Presidents term in constant investigation to look for things to impeach and indeed to use it to "invalidate" the vote of the public.

Hamilton said:

In many cases it will connect itself with the pre existing factions, and will enlist all their animosities, partialities, influence, and interest on one side or on the other, and in such cases there will always be the greatest danger that the decision will be regulated more by the comparative strength of parties, than by the real demonstrations of innocence or guilt.

Neil J. Kinkopf Professor of Law at the Georgia State University College of Law, said:

The Framers meant for the phrase high crimes and misdemeanors to signify only conduct that seriously harms the public and seriously compromises the officers ability to continue. If the phrase is given a less rigorous interpretation, it could allow Congress to influence and control the President and the courts

I read this on "The Hill" and I agree with it.

Instead of relying on impeachment, the founders expected Americans to hold their presidents accountable every four years. The best place for showing the strength of a political party is not by trying to impeach a president but by respecting voters at the ballot box.

[wayfriend]

No one said impeachment was wrong when Clinton was impeached. Hmmm...

Fortunately, no one can argue that the Democrats have "comparative strength". Unfortunately, one can easily argue that the Republicans do so have it.

What are the odds that THEY will regulate their decision by the real demonstration of innocence or guilt, and not by the strength of their party?

About Zero. I have seen no evidence to argue otherwise.

So the Republicans are the ones abusing the Constitution in the way Hamilton described. Thanks for sharing that.

Meanwhile, "conduct that seriously harms the public and seriously compromises the officers ability to continue" has been rigorously demonstrated. The Contempt of Congress charges alone do so, and these are blatant, public, and undeniable.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

"Contempt of Congress" is neither a crime nor impeachable. Congress is not elevated above the Executive even though they think they are. When the trial goes to the Senate, the Chief Justice will conduct it as a fair trial, complete with having to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the evidence warrants removal...which it does not. No, "fishing for reasons to impeach until one is found" is the real abuse of power here.

Right now, when Democrats are not focusing on impeachment, they are figuring out what their talking points will be after Trump returns to the Oval Office until the election.

The Democrats have also let this genie out of its bottle. The next time the POTUS and majority of the House are different parties the investigations will begin as soon as the swearing in ceremony is over. Thanks a lot.

[Zarathustra]

No one said impeachment was wrong when Clinton was impeached. Hmmm...

Democrats did. For exactly the reasons listed above. And listening to Nadler now, I agree with him. Perjury is a serious offense, but lying under oath about a personal matter doesn't affect the President's job or represent a threat to our country. This whole "get Trump" thing is making me rethink my position on Clinton impeachment.

But at least Clinton DID commit a crime, and he DID obstruct justice (his crime--perjury--by definition obstructs justice). Trump wanting an investigation into Biden's abuse of power, and wielding his foreign policy influence to get this done, actually PROTECTS our country, not threatens it. And it's certainly not a crime. So we have neither criteria in this case for impeachment.

Meanwhile, "conduct that seriously harms the public and seriously compromises the officers ability to continue" has been rigorously demonstrated. The Contempt of Congress charges alone do so, and these are blatant, public, and undeniable.

How have we, the public, been harmed? Being butthurt and bitter over losing isn't harm.

[edit: watching the Youtube video link above, I think that Bernie Sanders must be secretly holding the One Ring. "He hasn't aged a day!" ]

[Rawedge Rim]

No one said impeachment was wrong when Clinton was impeached. Hmmm...

Democrats did. For exactly the reasons listed above. And listening to Nadler now, I agree with him. Perjury is a serious offense, but lying under oath about a personal matter doesn't affect the President's job or represent a threat to our country. This whole "get Trump" thing is making me rethink my position on Clinton impeachment.

But at least Clinton DID commit a crime, and he DID obstruct justice (his crime--perjury--by definition obstructs justice). Trump wanting an investigation into Biden's abuse of power, and wielding his foreign policy influence to get this done, actually PROTECTS our country, not threatens it. And it's certainly not a crime. So we have neither criteria in this case for impeachment.

Meanwhile, "conduct that seriously harms the public and seriously compromises the officers ability to continue" has been rigorously demonstrated. The Contempt of Congress charges alone do so, and these are blatant, public, and undeniable.

How have we, the public, been harmed? Being butthurt and bitter over losing isn't harm.

[edit: watching the Youtube video link above, I think that Bernie Sanders must be secretly holding the One Ring. "He hasn't aged a day!" ]

"No!" Bernie cried, springing to his feet, "With that power I should have power to great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly." His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within. "Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Orange Man himself." Then he paused for just an instant, and the his eyes filled with greed and lust for power, and quickly he stuffed the ring onto his finger and cried "Behold, now I have the power. Let the Orange Man beware!"

Then DNC stepped forward and with a word stopped Bernie. "We cannot permit this. In time you might master the ring and learn to abrogate our agreement. We cannot allow this.

[Savor Dam]

Shades of the ending of TIW. Nice!

Not that I am in any way associating the DNC (then or now) with Caerroil Wildwood.

[Ur Dead]

One could say is that these impeachment hearing is the DNC only way to attack Trump for re-election.
They know they do not have anybody who can beat him so the only thing to do is....to try to discredit him during his term of office.
Short sightedness on the Democrats part is that this can have the reverse effect when a Democrat is elected and there is a Republican House...
Countless hearing on any mistakes the President makes and muckraking going
amok.

[Gaius Octavius]

I'm pretty sure the Dems plan to flood the country with Democrat-voters so they won't have to worry about that, Ur.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

One the legal "experts" the Democrats brought in to give them permission to go ahead with impeachment--they don't want to do it without it appearing as if they have permission--stated that she once crossed the street rather than walk in front of a Trump hotel. In a regular court that would be termed a "hostile witness" and that testimony would probably result in the judge telling the jury not to consider it.

No matter what evidence they stretch or invent and no matter what "expert" they bring in to testify, the Democrats will never reach 67 votes in the Senate. I think they just want their little victory in that battle--we got him!--even though they know they will lose the war. That is how petty and jealous teenagers act.

Speaking of spoiled teenagers....Rep. Al Green--yes, I know, he is from Texas, but we have jerks just like every other place--was complaining that all the expert witnesses the Committee brought in were white. It did not matter that they were experts in Constitutional law and it did not matter that they were supporting his case--no, all he cared about was their skin color. Correct me if I am wrong--but I know I am not--but isn't that the textbook definition of "racism", considering only a person's skin color and not the content of their character or the words they are saying? Why are so many Democrats such unapologetic racists?

[TheFallen]

Trump impeachment to go ahead - House Speaker Nancy Pelosi

Speaker Nancy Pelosi says the House of Representatives will file impeachment charges against US President Donald Trump for alleged abuse of power.

"Our democracy is what is at stake, the president leaves us no choice but to act," the top elected Democrat said.

She spoke a day after the House Judiciary Committee began considering potential charges against the Republican president.

Mr Trump told Democrats to move quickly if they were going to impeach him.

He tweeted shortly before Mrs Pelosi's remarks: "If you are going to impeach me, do it now, fast, so we can have a fair trial in the Senate, and so that our country can get back to business."

The California congresswoman told Thursday morning's news conference: "The facts are uncontested. The president abused his power for his own political benefit at the expense of our national security, by withholding military aid and a crucial Oval Office meeting in exchange for an announcement for an investigation into his political rival."

She added: "Sadly, but with confidence and humility, with allegiance to our founders and a heart full of love for America, today I am asking our chairmen to proceed with articles of impeachment."

White House press secretary Stephanie Grisham said immediately afterwards that the Democrats "should be ashamed".

She added: "We look forward to a fair trial in the Senate."

Mrs Pelosi's statement came a day after she held a behind-closed-doors meeting on impeachment with her fellow Democrats and asked them: "Are you ready?"

The lawmakers responded with a rousing "Yes", according to the Associated Press news agency.

Link

This is now going to backfire so horribly on the Dems - just wait for Trump to spend the whole of 2020 pushing a narrative of "waste of time", "fake witch hunts" and "complete exoneration", once the Senate decides not to remove him from office.

Also, Pelosi's words - "Sadly, but with confidence and humility, with allegiance to our founders and a heart full of love for America, today I am asking our chairmen to proceed with articles of impeachment" - are jawdroppingly disingenuous. There's no humility, respect for the Constitution or love of America on display here at all - this is solely, exclusively and merely about political expediency and electioneering.

ASnyhow, crushingly dumb by the Dems - and absolutely no substitute for trying to make themselves electable (which FFS is what they should be doing). But hey, they'll reap what they sow...

[Gaius Octavius]

Well at this point, the Democratic Party is committing treason against the United States. They are enemies of the people.

Well, they are the Party of Treason (tm), after all. They are largely the reason why the Civil War happened.