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TheFallen
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Post by TheFallen »

wayfriend wrote:Well, that's not really anything to do with what I said, now is it? If she's not a populist, then it doesn't really address anything I said. But more importantly, I was speaking of hypocracy - either the pandemic is serious, or it is not. Ardern doesn't flip flop on the seriousness - yes, she is limiting international travel, but she is not simultaneously "re-opening" the economy when covid death rates are still rising exponentially. She doesn't downplay it on one side and overplay it on the other.

Just to be clear: it's a perfectly reasonable opinion to believe that things are getting a bit safer in your country but that opening travel to non-safe areas is not wise. There is no hypocrisy there. (And so, it wasn't the topic of my comment!) However, lifting restrictions when it is not prudent to do so while pretending things are "good", while at the same time restricting travel from countries that are actually safer and more contained than yours is (and with respect to the US, practically every country fits this category) by pretending things are "bad" there would be exactly the kind of thing I am talking about.
Your clarification above was necessary, because I didn't find what you originally posted to be particularly clear. In the light of that, it's now clear that your initial comment was completely US-centric and - as you've since clarified - was an effort to highlight the hypocrisy you predict from the incumbent US admin. I guess we'll see.

I originally thought you were making a general point about border closing being largely an action likely to be favoured by more right-leaning governments anywhere - hence my exemplar about New Zealand.

The predicted hypocrisy you attempt to highlight is not that easy to distinguish... as you quite correctly say, taking a position as detailed immediately below would be completely rational for any government of any political leaning to do:-

1. "We believe we've got the pandemic sufficiently under control within our own borders. Therefore start going back to work, because we need to restart the economy."

2. "The pandemic is not sufficiently controlled in other nations. We are therefore closing our borders in order to prevent a resurgence here."

The above is pretty much exactly the position that New Zealand has quite rationally taken - easier for them because like us, they're an island nation. I would suspect that it's a position that many First World administrations would also no doubt love to see themselves taking if such a thing were feasibly possible (it'd be much harder for nations in multi-country continents, such as Asia or Europe, to name but two).

So yes, I am expecting a general and quite rational severe restriction on borders and international travel for the foreseeable.

Whether your portrayed pantomime bad guys in the US do then put in place some utterly nonsensical policy for some primarily xenophobic reason remains to be seen - but if they do, it would indeed be irrational.

PS Sky... I think an effective treatment is much more likely to appear well before any vaccine does.
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Post by Skyweir »

Treatment?
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Post by SoulBiter »

Skyweir wrote:Treatment?
Yes, a vaccine keeps you from getting the virus. 18 months away at minimum. A treatment would be able to manage the symptoms to keep you from getting on a ventilator and dying. There are a number of them being worked on right now and many are close to compassionate use approval.
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Post by Skyweir »

Social distancing, lock downs etc are considered useful methods of reducing virus spread.

A means of managing contagion and a means of managing specific symptoms that you are more acutely referring to.

Current treatments primarily involve hospitalisation and respirators. If you have a fever they can treat that symptom ie the fever ... but was unaware of another treatment initiative that addresses pre-hospitalisation stage of the infection.

Interesting... sounds promising 👌
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

I have never had a problem with social distancing, keeping things clean/disinfected, and wearing masks/gloves while out in public; those things are all voluntary and actually will help slow the spread of all sorts of things including the generic seasonal flu. In fact, even when all this dies down you will see more regular mask-wearing in the United States like they do in Taiwan and Korea already.

My problem has always been with the force-closing of businesses, putting people out of work, spiking unemployment, etc and the gutting of parts of the First Amendment about the right to gather together peacefully. Businesses should have voluntarily restricted access--count the people going in then allow one person in for every person going out, increase online presence, allow runners to do shopping for customers, etc. The official political response to corona was poorly-thought-out and poorly executed.

What is the value of social disobedience? Typically, social disobedience is how positive changes get made--we would not have had Civil Rights had it not been for social disobedience. Social disobedience is its own reward--you are acting based upon the actual founding principle of the United States when you are being disobedient.

I still go back to another main point: we routinely accept over 2,000,000 deaths in the United States on an annual basis and those deaths do not blip on our radar, even as we grill hot dogs in the back yard or sip eggnog at a Christmas get-together. Freaking out over 71,079 deaths--if we extrapolate that out to the rest of the year that would be 205,903 deaths...and it is highly unlikely we reach that number--has two root causes: 1) panic because people thought this would be like Spanish Flu or Black Death or 2) it is a way to oppose Trump by blaming all the deaths on him.

Given that we know the following:
1) the virus has been here longer than we thought--at least one death in California in early February now ruled as community-spread corona, meaning they caught it in mid-January
2) the virus has spread more than we thought--a different study indicates that it is likely that 15% of New Yorkers (the State, not the city) have it
and 3) more people may by asymptomatic for it--people are testing positive for the virus or antibodies but displayed no symptoms
we may conclude that this strain of coronavirus really isn't as deadly as originally anticipated. Yes, people who get it may wind up becoming deathly ill, even die from it, but the vast majority of those people already had comorbid conditions like diabetes, heart disease, or previous lung conditions.

People are going to die regardless of what we do. When faced with "damned if you do and damned if you don't" then you should always choose "do" and deal with the consequences afterwards.
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Post by SoulBiter »

Skyweir wrote:Social distancing, lock downs etc are considered useful methods of reducing virus spread.

A means of managing contagion and a means of managing specific symptoms that you are more acutely referring to.

Current treatments primarily involve hospitalisation and respirators. If you have a fever they can treat that symptom ie the fever ... but was unaware of another treatment initiative that addresses pre-hospitalisation stage of the infection.

Interesting... sounds promising 👌
Oh there are a number of them. You just have to go out and look.

Gilliad has a drug called remdesivir that has shown promising results. Gilead released preliminary results from its clinical trial on its antiviral drug remdesivir last week, showing at least 50% of the COVID-19 patients treated with a five-day dosage of the drug improved.

Cytodyn has a drug called Leronlemab (now called Vyrologix) that is being tested now. Leronlamab is interesting for two big reasons. One, it attacks the mechanism through which viruses are able to reproduce themselves in human cells. Second, it can block the overwhelming immune response known as a cytokine storm that is thought to be responsible for people needing to be on ventilators and indeed most deaths.

https://nbcpalmsprings.com/2020/05/05/h ... -patients/
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Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+

Some lockdown-inspired diversion to brighten this hump-day ...


Nebula-75 - Episode One (A New For 2020 Supermarionation Drama) [YouTube: 15 min]
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Post by wayfriend »

The coronavirus killed American exceptionalism

The pandemic has forced us to face a brutal truth: America isn't as exceptional as it thinks it is. Here's why we faltered.

The reports coming out of the United States in the coronavirus pandemic have the feel of dispatches from the fall of Rome - a society-wide crackup of what was, in theory, the most advanced and influential nation on the planet.

Nurses have had to sew their own masks because the government failed to stockpile enough personal protective equipment (PPE). Health care workers who ran out of medical gowns turned to wearing ponchos donated by local baseball teams. They were the lucky ones - other nurses have donned garbage bags out of sheer desperation.

In the chaotic fight against coronavirus, states have competed against one other and the federal government in bidding wars for PPE. Maryland's Republican Gov. Larry Hogan is currently hiding thousands of coronavirus tests, purchased from South Korea, in an "undisclosed location" protected by the National Guard. Hogan is concerned that the federal government might seize them.

Amid the economy's free fall, Floridians have been forced to swamp unemployment insurance offices in person because the state's website doesn't work. From New Jersey to Minnesota to Texas, cars have stretched out as far as the eye can see as people wait in lines at food banks. The president is trying to force meatpacking workers to their factories, in conditions known to facilitate coronavirus spread, to keep grocery store meat fridges fully stocked.

In the American national consciousness, our country has always been the richest and most advanced in the world. We have the best of everything. We are the most "first world" of all the developed countries.

But in the United States of America, in the year 2020, the only categories we seem to be leading the rest of the world in are the numbers of confirmed infections and deaths from coronavirus.

The dystopian images and dismal numbers do not render America a "failed state," as some might have it. The United States is far from alone in mishandling the pandemic - several advanced states, like Sweden and Japan, have botched their responses in one way or another.

But such comparisons have not made our failures any easier to stomach. For decades, Americans have been conditioned to think of America as not just any country. Our popular histories and media tell us a story of "American exceptionalism" - the notion that we are unique among, maybe even superior to, every other nation on the planet, the world's rightful hegemon and steward. This ideal was never universally accepted, and always glossed over much that was ugly about our country, but the notion was widely shared.

Today, it is nearly impossible to maintain. Faced with perhaps the most significant global crisis since the end of the Cold War, America has proven itself to be depressingly ordinary, even substandard.

This is especially obvious to foreign observers. Henrik Enderlein, president of the Hertie School graduate university in Berlin, told the New York Times that "we are all stunned" by the scenes coming out of America. An April 30 editorial in Le Monde, France's paper of record, proclaimed this the end of the American era.

"The United States no longer exercises the role attributed to it in the 20th century, that of world leadership," the editors wrote. "In this crisis, it has completely extracted itself from it."

China, whose botched early response and cover-up of the early Wuhan outbreak rank as perhaps the greatest errors of the entire pandemic, has manipulated America's incompetence to make itself look good by comparison. Trump's downplaying of the virus became fodder for a brutally effective propaganda video on Chinese state media.

What the US and the world are witnessing in real time is the collapse of what billions the world over believed to be true: that America is exceptionally insulated from the cruelties and failures that plague other countries, and exceptionally suited to lead the international order.

The end of American exceptionalism has many contributors. But there's one I'd like to focus on. For our nation to be exceptional, it needs to actually be a nation: a community that sees itself, at least in part, as having shared aims and self-conception. American nationhood has become subordinate to partisan identity, party routinely trumping country. This division, in particular the partisan gamesmanship that has defined the Trump administration and the national Republican response, has played a notable role in many of the country's current policy failures.

Throughout President Trump's inept, even dangerous, handling of the coronavirus crisis, national Republican leaders have stood by him as they always have, even though the stakes now - a pandemic and economic misery not seen since the Great Depression - are as high as they've been in decades.

In confronting a crisis that's touching both blue and red America, Republicans continue to think in terms of party and political interest. In the latest round of federal stimulus, Republican Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell blocked vital funding for financially distressed states, saying he'd prefer states go bankrupt. An email from his office later made his reasons clear: It described such assistance as a "Blue State Bailout." (After coming under fire for his position, he has since said he's "open" to such aid - with conditions.)

Trump has said much the same. "It's not fair to the Republicans, because all the states that need help, they're run by Democrats in every case," he told the New York Post in an early May interview.

The other side of this partisan coin is the way Trump has used the powers of the federal government as his personal patronage system, working to benefit GOP governors and incumbent senators in the fight against coronavirus. After the federal government seized 500 ventilators requested by Colorado's Democratic governor, Trump sent 100 back to the state - crediting them to Sen. Cory Gardner, a Republican up for reelection in 2020.

And then there's the right-wing media, which has advanced and amplified the Trump line, even at the expense of public health and safety. Fox News in particular downplayed the epidemic early, repeatedly hyped up small anti-social-distancing protests, and tried to sell its audience on hydroxychloroquine as a coronavirus treatment despite clearly insufficient evidence. All these messages were wrapped up in a culture-war frame that heaped opprobrium on Democrats and the media.

Each country's coronavirus failures have stemmed from its particular problems - authoritarian instincts to cover up bad news; out-of-touch public health officials. America's stem from our fundamentally cloven national identity.

When leaders from one of two major parties view themselves as partisans first, the country cannot live up to its claims to be exceptional.

Political division and the death of American exceptionalism

It seems crassly partisan to say that Republicans have done more damage to America's shared national identity than Democrats have. And to be clear, the end of American exceptionalism isn't solely the work of Republican Party elites.

Yet any honest reckoning with the collapse of American exceptionalism must include recognizing that there are core differences between the two political parties - and that these differences mean one party behaves in a more responsible way than the other.

In their book Asymmetric Politics, political scientists David Hopkins and Matt Grossmann trace this distinction back to the basic makeup of each party's political support: While the Democratic Party is a coalition of social groups, the GOP is primarily a vehicle for a single cohesive ideological movement. This difference has made the Democratic leadership more inclined toward cooperation and compromise, while Republican elected officials are pushed toward extremism and scorched-earth politics.

In a healthy democracy, political disagreement is a matter of rivalry rather than existential struggle - allowing for divides that can be surmounted in times of national threat, sometimes even leading to unity governments where rival parties agree to share power.

But Republican antipathy toward Democrats has become an all-consuming hatred, its partisans viewing Democrats less as the loyal opposition than as internal enemies.

"Republican politicians from Newt Gingrich to Donald Trump learned that, in a polarized society, treating rivals as enemies can be useful," Harvard scholars Daniel Ziblatt and Steven Levitsky write in How Democracies Die. "Casting Democrats as not real Americans is a frontal assault on mutual toleration."

This zero-sum vision - dominant, though not universally shared, among Republican leaders - is in tension with the very idea of American exceptionalism. It no longer makes sense to speak of an American "national character," if it ever did, in a world where differences of ideology and identity take such categorical precedence over the things that bind the country together.

The country is locked in what I've termed a "cold civil war," an all-consuming internal struggle playing out through its political institutions that is not in any way exceptional. It's the sort of political warfare you see in severely polarized, failing democracies like Chile in the early 1970s or contemporary Poland.

Coronavirus exposes the threat of asymmetric polarization

The coronavirus crisis is a vivid demonstration of how the idea of the nation has been supplanted by a "partyocracy": a government run for the benefit of the members of one party rather than the citizenship as a whole.

"The contemporary Republican Party has been built to wage ideological and partisan conflict more than to manage the government or solve specific social problems," Hopkins wrote in a recent post on his personal blog. "So perhaps it shouldn't be shocking that an array of subjects, from what medical treatment might help COVID patients to how important it is to take measures protecting the lives of the elderly, have been drawn into the perpetual political wars."

In theory, this pandemic should be a catalyst for national unity - a crucible during which citizens come together to make shared sacrifices and beat back a common enemy. That's the tone German Chancellor Angela Merkel has struck in her widely hailed public discussions of the virus, leading to a significant rise in her approval rating. In Canada, political scientists have documented nearly unprecedented levels of consensus among leaders from the most popular parties on the need for social distancing.

In the US, it's a different story. When former President George W. Bush issued a call for nonpartisan cooperation earlier this week, Trump dismissed it, blasting his Republican predecessor for (allegedly) being insufficiently loyal to the Trump cause.

The impact of asymmetric partisan warfare can be felt across the American coronavirus response, going well beyond the Bush incident, McConnell's "Blue State Bailouts" gibe, or the president's use of ventilators as patronage in Colorado. Trump's public pronouncements have been muddled, often contradictory, but he has frequently questioned the need for social distancing measures. He's working hard to deflect blame for economic pain onto the governors (frequently blue staters) who imposed state-level lockdowns and, more broadly, to turn the crisis into a partisan affair.

In mid-April, he gave oxygen to the anti-social-distancing protests in states like Michigan, Virginia, and Minnesota, tweeting "LIBERATE" in all caps. In early May, he wrote that "the Democrats are just, as always, looking for trouble. They do nothing constructive, even in times of crisis."

The explanation for the president's divisiveness is, as always, almost purely political. Trump has done a poor job managing the coronavirus outbreak: Many of the cardinal failures, like PPE shortages and insufficient testing, can be blamed on a sluggish and inefficient federal response. The Trump administration seems to be treating this as a political damage control problem, exploiting hyperpartisanship to cover for its substantive failures rather than working full-tilt to address them on a policy level.

Trump believes in "owning the libs" as a matter of both political principle and strategy, convinced that turning everything into a war between Trumpists and liberals is a win for him in an election year - a strategy that McConnell and other leading national Republicans are all too happy to endorse. That's especially true now that Trump's pre-pandemic 2020 argument, that he delivered strong economic growth throughout his term, is no longer viable.

"He is worried about the impact of soaring unemployment numbers and severe economic contraction on his 2020 reelection bid," the Washington Post reported in late March. "He remains fixated on the plummeting stock market, is chafing at the idea of the country remaining closed until the summer and growing tired of talking only about the coronavirus."

Given this kind of signaling from the Republican Party's leader, and no backlash from a national party that has bound up its fate with Trump, it's no surprise that many Republicans at the state level adopted similarly irresponsible approaches. A recent working paper from five University of Washington researchers linked Republican governors' reticence to impose distancing measures to the national political climate: The redder the state, the slower its governor was to act.

"All else equal, Republican governors and governors from states with more Trump supporters were slower to adopt social distancing policies," the researchers write. "The most important predictors are political."

Only eight states never issued stay-at-home orders, all of which have Republican governors. But five of those eight states - Arkansas, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Iowa, and South Dakota - saw mid-April increases in coronavirus cases well above the national norm. (So far, more populous Democratic-leaning states have done more testing and seen the most confirmed cases overall.) In late April and May, Republican-governed states pushed the envelope when it came to reopening; Georgia's Brian Kemp has embraced a particularly aggressive timetable.

The result of the GOP's partisan approach to coronavirus has been to fracture the country, embrace potentially harmful policies for political reasons at the national level, and create a patchwork of state-level responses that's likely to facilitate wider virus spread.

To say the American response is a failure is somewhat imprecise. It's more accurate to say that there is no overarching American response - and that this disunity has been disastrous.

Coronavirus and the reemergence of America

Does deep and asymmetric polarization, a structural problem that no one really has a plan for resolving, mean the country is doomed? Will America not only decline on the world stage, but suffer beyond all reason as a result of this pandemic?

The smart money is, as always, on dysfunction. Yet during this awful time, there have been some encouraging signs that Americans could do better - that there might be a path out of the hyperpartisan dystopia.

Early data during the pandemic showed that Republicans were generally taking coronavirus less seriously than Democrats. One study found that Republicans were considerably less likely than Democrats to change their personal behavior in response to the virus, seemingly for politically motivated reasons. "Partisanship is a more consistent predictor of behaviors, attitudes, and preferences than anything else that we measure," the authors write.

But as the crisis has unfolded, things have started to look a little different - and more promising.

Some Republican governors, like Maryland's Hogan and Ohio's Mike DeWine, have fully embraced social distancing and public health best practices - even when it's been inconvenient for the national party. Hogan in particular has been somewhat critical of Trump's response, calling his anti-distancing tweets "unhelpful."

In the past, Republicans clashing with Trump has signaled political doom for Trump's enemy. But taking a strong line on social distancing seems to be helping these governors, not hurting them. In purple Ohio, DeWine boasts a roughly 75 percent approval rating - a significant improvement on his pre-virus numbers, and one of the highest bounces of any governor in the country.

These numbers reflect a striking level of consensus on the coronavirus among ordinary Americans, even as Republican elites push a divisive message. An Associated Press poll, conducted April 16-20, found that a majority of both Democrats (62 percent) and Republicans (59 percent) believe "the restrictions to prevent the spread of coronavirus are about right." Twenty-two percent of Republicans said they went too far, while 19 percent said they didn't go far enough.

A mid-April Morning Consult poll asked voters whether the country "should continue to social distance for as long as is needed to curb the spread of coronavirus, even if it means continued damage to the economy." An astonishing 81 percent agreed that it should - as did 72 percent of Republicans.

Another mid-April poll, from Yahoo News-YouGov, asked Americans how they felt about the anti-social-distancing protests promoted by President Trump and Fox News. Only 22 percent said they supported these protesters; 60 percent, by contrast, said they opposed them. Even a plurality of Republicans said they opposed them - 47 percent against, as compared to 36 percent in support.

A fourth poll, published in early May by the Washington Post, asked Americans if they think limits on "restaurants, stores, and other businesses" were appropriate, too restrictive, or not restrictive enough. Significant majorities of both Democrats (72 percent) and Republicans (62 percent) said they believe the current restrictions are appropriate.

These consistent numbers may help explain why the anti-distancing protests have been so anemic and poorly attended.

"Most Americans can look around and see what's happening. They see people dying and suffering. They know this is a real problem," Theda Skocpol, a scholar of social movements at Harvard, told my colleague Sean Illing. "So no, I don't think [the anti-distancing movement] is going to be the next Tea Party."

This represents a failure of the political division as practiced by Trump, McConnell, and Fox News. American citizens have not neatly split along partisan lines; the bulk of ordinary Republicans appears to be treating the crisis as a serious shared challenge rather than another front in the culture wars.

It's tough to be confident in why this seems to be true. But one theory is that, as Skocpol suggests, it's one of those political crises so overwhelming that no one really escapes its touch.

In other Trump-era controversies, like Trump's impeachment, the issue was abstract: Few American lives were directly and concretely affected by the president withholding military aid to Ukraine, hence the public's responses fell along familiar partisan lines. But when you or someone you love falls deathly ill, or you're worried about becoming ill yourself, it's hard to credit a politician telling you that the social distancing cure is worse than the disease.

Nor is the attempt to paint the outbreak as a blue-state problem likely to succeed. Though the outbreak hit large blue cities like Seattle and New York first, the virus is making its way around the country.

A late April analysis by the Kaiser Family Foundation found that the rate of increases in coronavirus cases and deaths was higher outside of cities than it was in them. A more fine-grained study by Brookings's William Frey found that the disease is becoming an increasingly suburban and rural problem.

"On March 29, four-fifths of high-prevalence county populations resided in the urban cores of large metropolitan areas," Frey writes. "Among residents of counties which entered high-prevalence status between April 6 and April 12, for example, only 31% lived in urban core counties, while 45% lived in suburbs and 24% lived in small and nonmetropolitan areas."

It is still possible that the coronavirus crisis will end up like most every other crisis in recent history. Eventually, the public could end up defaulting to a partisan lens.

"People who feel that the pandemic is going to 'break the fever' of the past couple decades - that it will finally drain public life of its malice, its addiction to remorseless conflict and conspiracy theory, its devil-take-the-hindmost nihilism - carry the burden of proof," Politico's John Harris writes.

The past few years have repeatedly vindicated such pessimism; we shouldn't be surprised if 2020 ends up doing the same.

But there are at least glimmers of an alternative reality: one where Americans, shocked by the country's failures during the coronavirus, troubled by the truth they're seeing on the ground, actually start acting like a country. Maybe, in that world, we can start to talk about American exceptionalism again. [link]
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

I stopped reading here:
While the Democratic Party is a coalition of social groups, the GOP is primarily a vehicle for a single cohesive ideological movement. This difference has made the Democratic leadership more inclined toward cooperation and compromise, while Republican elected officials are pushed toward extremism and scorched-earth politics.
because this bullshit totally invalidates anything else the author might have been trying to say. Democrats are the ones who want only one viewpoint--look how the Democrat leadership is essentially forcing Democrats to support Joe Biden despite the fact that he now qualifies as a sexual predator like Bill Clinton was.

Democrats were politicizing corona since it became a thing and they are still doing it now: they want people to be sick so they can blame it on Trump and they want the economy to stay closed so they can blame that on Trump as well as continue forcing the door open for Socialism. Was Trump's response well-thought-out? No, of course not....but responding to an epidemic is a State issue, not a Federal one. We are not one large nation, folks, we are 50 small ones (well, okay--49 small ones and Texas--California does not count because it is a failed State).

We should not have force-closed all those businesses and put all those people out of work. Illogical choices made in a fit of panic are, well, illogical.

Democrats can finally be happy now that America is being seen as a failed State--they have been longing for that for decades so they can finally usher in the Glorious People's Republic of America.
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Post by SoulBiter »

Its a very one sided piece written by Zack Beauchamp who is a self proclaimed writer who's work focuses on the "rise of the populist right" Just reading his work makes me lose about 50 IQ points. One such article is "Rethinking The Right To Bear Arms". He writes that resistance to gun legislation is not the same as giving up your right to free speech but he leaves out that the govt enforces its rights through what? "force of arms".

I had a lot more to say about that article but it isnt the one we are discussing. He speaks about how
The president is trying to force meatpacking workers to their factories, in conditions known to facilitate coronavirus spread, to keep grocery store meat fridges fully stocked.
but he doesnt say is how people will get food if we allow our food chain to collapse.

He also states
The other side of this partisan coin is the way Trump has used the powers of the federal government as his personal patronage system, working to benefit GOP governors
I live in a State with a Democrat governor and he will be the first to tell you that every time he has called the White house to speak with Trump, he has gotten what he asked for to help with this virus. So this is patently false.

The there is this:
But Republican antipathy toward Democrats has become an all-consuming hatred, its partisans viewing Democrats less as the loyal opposition than as internal enemies.
Pot meet kettle. I see this as the exact opposite. Since Trump took office the only thing on Democrats minds has been getting him out of office. Talk about ALL CONSUMING HATRED,. look no further than the Democrats hate of all things Trump.

I could go on for a long time because this is a long article. But its full of Democrat partisan bologna.
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Post by Ur Dead »

What percent of the US population is climbing the walls??
At this point..
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SoulBiter wrote:
The other side of this partisan coin is the way Trump has used the powers of the federal government as his personal patronage system, working to benefit GOP governors
I live in a State with a Democrat governor and he will be the first to tell you that every time he has called the White house to speak with Trump, he has gotten what he asked for to help with this virus. So this is patently false.
I was actually reading something about this the other day, (will look for the link if I can) and it was essentially saying that Trump has actually been using this to try and win over some of the dem side, so they have been getting more support than the guys he already knows are on his team. :)

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Post by Skyweir »

Makes tactical sense actually.

The article raises some valid observations. As to bias, that may be irrefutable .. as to the comments re Trump I agree from the bits and pieces Ive seen he has handled this as well as he handles his now defunct businesses.
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Post by TheFallen »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:I still go back to another main point: we routinely accept over 2,000,000 deaths in the United States on an annual basis and those deaths do not blip on our radar, even as we grill hot dogs in the back yard or sip eggnog at a Christmas get-together. Freaking out over 71,079 deaths--if we extrapolate that out to the rest of the year that would be 205,903 deaths...and it is highly unlikely we reach that number--has two root causes: 1) panic because people thought this would be like Spanish Flu or Black Death or 2) it is a way to oppose Trump by blaming all the deaths on him.
Hmm. I think this argument is again misframed.

Yes, the US routinely accepts over 2 million deaths per annum, pretty much as "normal shit that happens, which we've already got our heads around." It's implicitly viewed as the acceptable cost of driving cars, or eating a shitty diet, or smoking or just random Fate or whatever.

What's different with coronavirus (and what in my very firm view invalidates any "but we routinely accept..." argument) is that it is outside the norm. It's a new, unexpected and additional thing.

Yes, it may only result in an extra 200k US deaths over 2020 - though I think that's a substantially lowballed estimate... the US will easily be 75% of the way there by the end of this month alone. I suspect that it's undercalled by at least half.

But these are additional and unexpected deaths. As such, they're outside the norm so they're not accepted as "just normal shit that happens" - and nor should they be.

Okay coronavirus isn't a sudden one-off event, unlike 9/11 (which killed less than 3,000 let's not forget), but its current impact has still happened pretty damn quickly. Only 50 days ago, the US hadn't reached 100 deaths...

This pretty conclusively shows how coronavirus should not be lumped in for consideration with other known and expected "shit happens" things.

Separately re WF's pasted article. I actually agreed with some of it - I do believe (and have done for ages) that the US - and in fact any nation following the same road - is being damaged by the current political climate of ideological extremism and irreconcilable divisiveness - or pantomime politics, as I often refer to this.

However, as has been pointed out by Hashi and SB already, as soon as whichever blinkered and agenda-driven op ed journo who wrote that piece descends in blissful ignorance from a general evaluation of the current state of things (and what he says in respect of this does have worth and relevance) to the specific and starts to look to assign blame according to his oh so obvious pre-existing bias, the article becomes yet another prejudicial and partisan diatribe along the usual trite lines of "Trump irredeemably evil! Dems permanently morally correct!".

And this literally complete lack of self-awareness on the part of the author would be truly deliciously ironic if it wasn't so damn depressing. Fucking take a look in the mirror, dude... because you are peddling the exact same polarised and pantomime "ultimately ideologically good versus ultimately ideologically evil" divisive schtick that you accuse those to whom you are diametrically opposed of.

Doing one's best to try to frame a political rivalry as a fanatical and quasi-religious (and seemingly, quasi-"end of times") battle between the forces of Good and the forces of Evil is as crass as it is dangerous, no matter which side is doing it.
Newsflash: the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron" :roll:

Shockingly, some people have claimed that I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them

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Post by SoulBiter »

TF absolutely spot on.

It already makes no sense to keep everything closed and I am glad to see things being reopened. As I have said many times, we were never going to be able to wait out this virus from home. If even one person has it after a lock down ends, then it goes back to spreading. We have to get herd immunity.

Looking at Sweden, which I have also said is our "canary in a coal mine", their curve looks not so different from ours but without the closing of business which is crashing our economy. If this continues I will be the very first to eat crow and say "over-reaction". Another 4 to 6 weeks of their data will definitely tell the tale.

You know, in terms of "we are keeping you safe". There is a meme going around that basically says "if masks work why are we keeping businesses closed. If masks don't work, why are we required to wear them?". Now I get it, the masks are not the end all of the spread of this virus, and helps "some". However we as a society need to understand that we wont be getting out of this without letting people catch it, and garner some level of immunity. If there was ever a time to do so, its now.
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TheFallen
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Post by TheFallen »

Soulbiter wrote:
TheFallen wrote:Okay coronavirus isn't a sudden one-off event, unlike 9/11 (which killed less than 3,000 let's not forget), but its current impact has still happened pretty damn quickly. Only 50 days ago, the US hadn't reached 100 deaths...
TF absolutely spot on.
Well if you think about it, the US has had over 75,000 coronavirus deaths in the last 50 days. Using 9/11 as a reference point ***just*** in terms of numbers of completely unexpected and thus purely additional deaths caused outside of the usual and sure, accepted norms, that's effectively a new 9/11 every 48 hours by my reckoning... how can coronavirus then possibly be considered as merely part of "the usual shit that happens"?

You know why I reckon masks are helpful? Not to stop you getting coronavirus, but to stop someone who already has it and is still infectious (whether symptomatic or not) spreading it so easily.

The average mask you see people wearing is I bet far FAR more effective at keeping coronavirus in, rather than keeping it out.
Newsflash: the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron" :roll:

Shockingly, some people have claimed that I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them

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Post by wayfriend »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
While the Democratic Party is a coalition of social groups, the GOP is primarily a vehicle for a single cohesive ideological movement. This difference has made the Democratic leadership more inclined toward cooperation and compromise, while Republican elected officials are pushed toward extremism and scorched-earth politics.
[...] Democrats can finally be happy now that America is being seen as a failed State--they have been longing for that for decades so they can finally usher in the Glorious People's Republic of America.
You're funny. Pointing out your extremist ideological arguments why the Democrats are the enemy of the State. (I presume you don't actually back the author's point, you're just acting exactly as he claims the GOP is acting for humor's sake.)

- - - - -

Meanwhile, the CDC recommendations on COVID-19 "will never see the light of day" according to the Trump administration. This, coupled with the fact that the CDC has been pushed to the sidelines of our national emergency briefings, shows another big L for Team Science, and a big W for Team Bleachinjection.

Meanwhile, every one of the 50 states has failed to meet Trumps own laxer guidelines for re-opening. Now THAT'S leadership. Not that he cares -- he's cheering them on. Everyone knows it's only a pose. Despite expert projections that this course is very, very bad, it's good Trump. But he'll disavow all responsibility when it inevitably goes pear-shaped - they didn't listen to him. Win/Win.

More Trump officials have been fired because they disagreed with Trump's so-called "facts" or so-called "projections". Team Trump or get on the bus.

Once again, the GOP let slip that aide is being rigged to help red states and hurt blue states. This time it was Mitch. Party over country ... despite Hashi's fact-based, well-reasoned, unbiased opinion that anyone who decries this is a communist, this is what the evidence shows.

So, yeah, tell me again about who's pushing a one-viewpoint-allowed agenda.
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Post by SoulBiter »

Despite the hand wringing from the left, President Trump is exactly correct to send the recommendations back to the CDC for changes.

Guidance in rural Tennessee shouldnt be the same guidance for urban New York City, the official said. For some of these reasons, the Task Force, who saw this after it was leaked, asked for certain revisions to be made to not only follow the phases in the Open Up America Guidance, but work for all across America whether in rural areas or urban.
Now Nancy on the other hand likes Federal oversight of just about everything and her statement is:
U.S. must have a federal standard for reopening
I would also point out how very wrong the "experts" have been so far and yet we are supposed to be listening to them for "exact recommendations to follow".

Thanks Mr. Trump. You sir are spot on. Its up to the States to determine when and whether it is safe to open their State for business.
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Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+

Cooking priest in India: 'People want recipes; I want to share Jesus' [Video]
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Father Warner D'Souza cooks a meal on his YouTube channel. (Credit: YouTube)


MUMBAI, India -- A priest in India who is also a professionally trained chef has gained a new audience during the coronavirus lockdown.

Father Warner D'Souza, who heads St Jude's Church in Mumbai, told Crux "people wand food recipes and I want to share Jesus."

The priest's YouTube channel has nearly 5,000 subscribers, and he uses to share reflections and liturgies to his parishioners -- but his program "Food for the Soul" has become the hit of the internet.


Food for the soul - dal makhni [YouTube: 15 min]
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"Food for the soul began as a journey led by the Lord," D'Souza explained. "I was retiring for the day when the news channel reported that the evidence from search engines pointed out that food was high on most people's list during the lockdown. The next day, I providentially got a call from the 'Jesus Youth' asking me if I would do a food show and talk about the faith. I love teaching the Scriptures and food is a passion."

His passion for food began in his youth, since he often had to cook as a child.

[...]

Part of the reason the show is a success is the priest's style: He easily switches from food to religion, and his easy-going manner makes these constant shifts seem perfectly natural.

"Teaching comes naturally to me; my parents were teachers and I grew up watching them. Today that seed has borne fruit in my ability to break the word. Since I am passionate about the Word and food, it has not been a challenge," D'Souza said. "For these days I preach from two pulpits, the one in Church and the kitchen in my residence. God calls each of us to use our pulpit to evangelize. If you sing, make that your pulpit."

[...]

The lockdown has made D'Souza's internet ministry vital -- and he even uses Zoom to have meetings with his parishioners.

"Since the lockdown people have been hooked on to the internet. When Pope John Paul II called for a new evangelization; new in ardor and method he was calling for every means to be used. The internet is the new normal and we must therefore use every means that God has given us to make Him known," the priest said.

The St. Jude parish, located in Mumbai's Malad East area, has just 250 families, but has been highly active during the coronavirus crisis.

"Since the first day of the pandemic we have made sure none of our parishioners, many who live in the shanties, have been in need. From financial aid to groceries we have given 300 packets of groceries enough for a family of 4 for at least ten days," D'Souza said. "This has also been shared with the community at large which includes Hindus and Muslims."


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Post by Skyweir »

🤦‍♀️

No words 😶 lol 😂

Still surprised by the fealty of Trumpers lol 😂

Yes states should decide about their states. Here its the same. The Northern Territory has not had one solitary case of corona, according to the Victorian Premier today .. so very different dynamic to Victoria or NSW ... population densities are also critically different. But that does not mean we abandon national targets, or forgo national leadership.

The US is no different ... having a national benchmark is critical and its prudent to be laxer so long as it isnt totally off the mark.

IF indeed Trump has sent the CDC release back for tweaking .. perfectly acceptable ... but IF its not seeing the light of day because it does not accord with Trumps personally preferred narrative... not so great.

Personally seen little to convince me Trump has been anything but a liability re COVID19 management.
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