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What a big new study on malaria drugs as Covid-19 treatments tells us -- and what it doesn't [In-Depth]
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Hydroxychloroquine pills. (GEORGE FREY/AFP VIA GETTY IMAGES}


A new study underlines safety concerns about using the malaria drugs hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine to treat Covid-19, and heightens questions about whether or not the drugs are effective at all.

The study, which was published in the Lancet, cannot answer the question of whether or not hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine can help patients fight off Covid-19 or whether the drugs increase or decrease the death rates in those patients. Those answers can only come from large studies in which patients are randomly assigned to either receive the drugs or a placebo. Dozens of such studies are ongoing.

The results, however, are a reminder of the risks of deciding to use medicines without clear evidence of their benefits and risks.

One of the findings of the current study seems hard to ignore: that the drugs increase the risk of dangerous disturbances in heart rhythms. These are known side effects of both medicines, but the increases in the study are striking. After adjustment for other risk factors, it appears that patients on hydroxychloroquine had double the risk of ventricular arrhythmias, and those on chloroquine had triple. When an antibiotic such as azithromycin was added, as some proponents have advocated, the risk jumped to fivefold.

"It's a very striking finding and it's convincing to me," said Steven Nissen, a cardiologist at the Cleveland Clinic. "Based upon these findings and others, no one should take hydroxychloroquine with or without an antibiotic unless they are in a randomized controlled trial. It should not be used in the general population to prevent or to treat Covid-19 infection."

Eric Topol, director and founder of the Scripps Research Translational Institute and a cardiologist, noted the risk in a series of tweets. "It's no longer that hydroxychloroquine has no sign of efficacy," he wrote, "it is associated with an increase in mortality."

The study is the largest observational study so far on the use of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine to treat Covid-19; it combined data from 15,000 Covid-19 patients at 671 hospitals on six continents who were treated with the drugs. Those patients were compared to 81,000 patients who had Covid-19 but did not receive the drugs.

[...]

Even if the results from the new study, led by researchers at the Brigham and Women's Hospital Center for Advanced Heart Disease/Cardiomyopathy in Boston, hold up, it's still possible the drug could have some benefit. Researchers are testing it for preventing people who are exposed to the virus from being infected. Again, that can only come from randomized controlled studies.

Hydroxychloroquine use spiked dramatically after the drug was embraced by President Trump, who on Monday said that he himself was taking the drug, and commentators on Fox News. Sean Hannity read a letter from a doctor recounting his own experience using the drugs as a treatment on air.

Results from some of the first large, randomized studies of hydroxychloroquine are expected soon, including a study being conducted by the French government and one at the University of Minnesota. If they show that the drugs were actually harmful, it will be another giant misstep in the response to the virus. If they show it works, we'll have another tool -- probably a small one -- in combating the pandemic.


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Post by Skyweir »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:A look at the demographics will tell you that Hashi and I have been right all along. This is a very infectious virus that is mildly dangerous to the very old and those who have certain other health factors.
There is new, up-to-date research from the CDC on that very topic....but the link to it is on the other computer. I will have to grab that link and put it here, which is something I will do a little later today.
I read this morning that the US has 4% of the global population and but is over-represented having 28% of COVID deaths.

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America is currently over achieving and rocketing toward 100k deaths .. and its looking like you'll get there long before August.

The "herd immunity" preference will merely assure it.
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Post by SoulBiter »

Well the US isn't rocketing right now when it comes to Covid-19 deaths. If you care to search you will see that my predictions on deaths from Covid are pretty close to where we are today.

To add some perspective

This is from my own spreadsheet where I have been tracking this.

Deaths from Covid US alone

2nd week in April up 29% from the previous week
3rd week in April up 6%

Here it starts trending the other way. Each week compared to the previous week.
4th week -13%
1st week in May -5%
2nd week in May -17%
3rd week in May -14%
4th week in May -27%

So not a a very good rocket-ship. However the tale isnt written in full. With the re-opening, we may see this turn the other way to some degree. But if it just stays steady, we will hit 150K deaths the second week in July (which throws me off by two weeks of my original numbers because of the decreases.

From Statistica

Deaths per million citizens updated as of May 26:

Belgium = 815
Spain = 574
UK = 555
Italy = 544
France = 424
Sweden = 395
Netherlands = 395
Ireland = 330
USA = 299

So you can see the US isnt at the top of the list when it comes to deaths.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Skyweir wrote:
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:There is new, up-to-date research from the CDC on that very topic....but the link to it is on the other computer. I will have to grab that link and put it here, which is something I will do a little later today.
I read this morning that the US has 4% of the global population and but is over-represented having 28% of COVID deaths.
Yes, that is an accurate representation of the numbers. That does make us a statistical anomaly at this time but sometimes that happens.

Personally, I am neither worried about nor interested in daily death totals because too much of the time those numbers are politicized, usually as a way to try and somehow make this whole thing Trump's fault as opposed to being the fault of China--which it is--or State governors, who have more authority on this issue than does Trump.

Incidentally, that CDC link may be found here. The rightmost column for Scenario 5 is the one based on actual case data rather than guesswork. In summary, it is still as infectious as we thought but it does not appear to be anywhere near as deadly as anticipated, except to those who are older and/or have risk factors....which is exactly what we knew 3 months ago.
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Post by Skyweir »

The above chart was accurate to the time and date stamp for actual deaths ... not politicised deaths, or predicted deaths. Actual.

As to fault thats an interesting issue right there.

And does it in reality matter now? There is a global inquiry into cause, and transfer .. highly appropriate of course.

But once it is within a nation .. its entirely a management issue. And your concern Hashi about slut shaming Trump is as silly as it is funny.

Cuz definitely some management criticisms there. But not just cuz Trump ... 🙄 cuz thats pointless exercise. But cuz deficient handling. But I suspect more awaits .. hopefully we as humans will learn something useful along the way.
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Post by Skyweir »

Now the US had surpassed 100,000.

Sitting currently at 100,271

Wasnt there people that said such a projection was a folly?
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Post by Avatar »

It's slowed there significantly though, (deaths that is). The real question is by how much it will start to rise as more things re-open etc. 0.02% of the population dead is not that significant statistically speaking.

(Of course, the families of the deceased probably feel understandably differently, but in the greater scheme of things it's not that much.)

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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Skyweir wrote:Now the US had surpassed 100,000.
That is still less that deaths by "accident", "motor vehicle accident", and it isn't even close to the numbers from a handful of medical conditions.

I just double-checked the CDC numbers. Their latest full report is for 2017 and at that time we hit 2.8 million deaths. No one stops the economy or orders lockdowns for those deaths so I guess those deaths don't matter.
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Post by TheFallen »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:I just double-checked the CDC numbers. Their latest full report is for 2017 and at that time we hit 2.8 million deaths. No one stops the economy or orders lockdowns for those deaths so I guess those deaths don't matter.
Bzzzt.

Endlessly repeated sophistry alert #37.

I refer the poster to my much repeated earlier differentiation between "normal, known and accepted shit that happens" and "incremental and unexpected new shit that's started happening".

That clear differentiation stands, regardless of whether lockdown measures are commensurate or not.

I do wish you'd stop spouting the same false equivalency and stop thumping the "well, existing deaths clearly don't matter, then" tub. That assertion didn't hold any water first time you put it forward and guess what? It still doesn't on this, its umpteenth repetition.

100 days ago, the US had 10 reported and incremental coronavirus deaths. As of yesterday it had 102,107 reported and incremental coronavirus deaths. Just as a side note and speaking of unexpected events and casualties, that's like over 34 9/11s in the last 100 days.

Look, I am NOT arguing in favour of lockdowns being continued with anything like the same economically damaging rigour. I too believe that it's time for a carefully monitored return to something approaching normality.

But for the love of God, cut the deliberately disingenuous sophistry - this is very obviously new, unforeseen and unaccepted shit that's in process of happening. Feel entirely free to argue over the severity of this new shit - but it is without a shred of doubt new shit... and thus unexpectedly incremental new shit.
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Post by SoulBiter »

Skyweir wrote:Now the US had surpassed 100,000.

Sitting currently at 100,271

Wasnt there people that said such a projection was a folly?
There were. However it wasnt me or TF or Z, who have said the entire time that we would see this many. I stated back in early April that we would hit this number and more. Later after updating my algorithms I realized we would hit that number in May. We will probably hit 200K in late August or early September. Its hard to say because the algorithm can only look so far ahead and be accurate.

If there is a fall resurgence that is significant, we can see 350K to 400K before years end.

I will also remind everyone that this virus will be with us for a long time. It may mutate into something worse or better. It will mutate and bypass vaccines. So again. Cant wait it out. We just need some viable treatments to get approved.
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Post by Lazy Luke »

SoulBiter wrote: It may mutate into something worse or better. It will mutate and bypass vaccines. So again. Cant wait it out. We just need some viable treatments to get approved.
Something better??? How about WAR with China. A very real ass kicking contest in the South China Seas. That'll put a lid on C-19 for sure.
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Lazy Luke wrote:
SoulBiter wrote: It may mutate into something worse or better. It will mutate and bypass vaccines. So again. Cant wait it out. We just need some viable treatments to get approved.
Something better??? How about WAR with China. A very real ass kicking contest in the South China Seas. That'll put a lid on C-19 for sure.
You think Covid killed a lot of people? A war with China would kill millions. So I hope you were just being faceteous.

Better meaning, less contagious, or less deadly, or easier to stop.
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Post by Lazy Luke »

I was reading a news item about Xi Jinping blaming America for introducing C-19 into China. Something about US v PLA military games in Wuhan last year. US won two or three medals and PLA won two or three hundred medals.
Chinese propaganda, I'll bet.

Probably fake news. I fall for it every time, silly me!
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

TheFallen wrote:But for the love of God, cut the deliberately disingenuous sophistry - this is very obviously new, unforeseen and unaccepted shit that's in process of happening. Feel entirely free to argue over the severity of this new shit - but it is without a shred of doubt new shit... and thus unexpectedly incremental new shit.
The newness of corona is irrelevant--either deaths matter or they do not. We never locked down anything for all those other deaths so having done so now was a nothing more than a political and social experiment. You don't have to like me saying it but I will never stop saying it because the truth points to itself.

The actual severity of cornoa means that there was never going to be a curve which needed to be flattened--those recent CDC numbers show that 35% of people who contract corona never develop any symptoms at all even though they will test positive for both the virus and the antibodies against it. Combine that with the overall fatality rate of 0.4% (not stratified by age; by age we know that older = more deadly) and what initially looked like a mountain turned out to be a molehill after all.
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Lazy Luke wrote:I was reading a news item about Xi Jinping blaming America for introducing C-19 into China. Something about US v PLA military games in Wuhan last year. US won two or three medals and PLA won two or three hundred medals.
Chinese propaganda, I'll bet.

Probably fake news. I fall for it every time, silly me!
The Chinese did, in the wake of Trump blaming them for engineering the virus, blame the US instead, but that was merely political tit for tat.

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Post by Skyweir »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
TheFallen wrote:But for the love of God, cut the deliberately disingenuous sophistry - this is very obviously new, unforeseen and unaccepted shit that's in process of happening. Feel entirely free to argue over the severity of this new shit - but it is without a shred of doubt new shit... and thus unexpectedly incremental new shit.
The newness of corona is irrelevant--either deaths matter or they do not. We never locked down anything for all those other deaths so having done so now was a nothing more than a political and social experiment. You don't have to like me saying it but I will never stop saying it because the truth points to itself.


Oh Jezus Hashi you get that accidental deaths arent biological contagious, right? This is a new contagion. Its a significant global health threat .. each nation responding to this very real threat are doing the best they can with the little we know. That means yes sure, some response strategies may be overkill and some will be woefully inadequate.

Lockdowns are extreme measures, absolutely.. their efficacy can be readily tested though .. as too can all measures implemented. But so too can no mitigation at all. We have some global models now that can readily be assessed .. just look to Brazil and Russia.

Hashi” wrote:The actual severity of cornoa means that there was never going to be a curve which needed to be flattened--those recent CDC numbers show that 35% of people who contract corona never develop any symptoms at all even though they will test positive for both the virus and the antibodies against it. Combine that with the overall fatality rate of 0.4% (not stratified by age; by age we know that older = more deadly) and what initially looked like a mountain turned out to be a molehill after all.
Yup not entirely accurate by half .. flattening the curve is about mitigating spread. Just look at Brazil 🦠 India etc for what happens when you do little to nothing to mitigate the spread.
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Post by TheFallen »

Hellfire! Upside down world again... Hashi's spouting completely illogical bollocks and Skyweir's talking cast-iron common sense. Who knew?
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
TheFallen wrote:But for the love of God, cut the deliberately disingenuous sophistry - this is very obviously new, unforeseen and unaccepted shit that's in process of happening. Feel entirely free to argue over the severity of this new shit - but it is without a shred of doubt new shit... and thus unexpectedly incremental new shit.
The newness of corona is irrelevant--either deaths matter or they do not. We never locked down anything for all those other deaths so having done so now was a nothing more than a political and social experiment. You don't have to like me saying it but I will never stop saying it because the truth points to itself.

The actual severity of corona means that there was never going to be a curve which needed to be flattened--those recent CDC numbers show that 35% of people who contract corona never develop any symptoms at all even though they will test positive for both the virus and the antibodies against it. Combine that with the overall fatality rate of 0.4% (not stratified by age; by age we know that older = more deadly) and what initially looked like a mountain turned out to be a molehill after all.
Hashi, I see you're now adding the presentation of a false dichotomy to your other logical fallacies... but I'll get to that in a bit. Firstly...

"The newness of corona is irrelevant--either deaths matter or they do not." Riiiight... :roll:

As for the "newness" and unique nature of coronavirus being "irrelevant"... you're seriously maintaining that this is "just another thing"??? Okay... name me one single other infectious disease within the last 70 years that has killed 100,000 US citizens in the space of 100 days?

And before you go groping for AIDS as an exemplar, that's killed about 720,000 people in the US since 1987 with maximum annual deaths peaking at around 42,000 (1994).

In fact, outside of heart disease and cancer, why don't you cite me *any* cause of US deaths that kills 100,000 people in 100 days? And yet, according to you, the newness of coronavirus is irrelevant.. it's just another thing, eh? Jesus...

"Combine that with the overall fatality rate of 0.4%..." Sorry - this is more utter and unadulterated bullshit. Your quoted mortality rate is just plain wrong by over an order of magnitude - disingenuous much? Now I'll freely admit that I still don't believe that mortality rate is much of a useful number, but since you quote it (and quote it entirely wrongly)...

Currently, the calculable US corona mortality rate is around 5.4%, averaged across all age ranges. Now even if we allow for your 35% of asymptomatic cases all going untested and thus being purely incremental and factor those in, the current US mortality rate would still be 3.8% - so around ten times the figure you're claiming. As you say, the truth points to itself...

Plus of course, those 35% untested asymptomatic cases are the absolute ideal spreaders of coronavirus, including to those 65% of people who won't be as lucky as them.

"...so having done so now was nothing more than a political and social experiment." Whoa - back to Independent Free State of Montana thinking. Okay, I'll run with this...

i) a deliberately run political and social experiment? Yes or no?

ii) a political and social experiment dreamt up and implemented by whom? Cui bono? Who exactly? (Another question previously asked and unanswered).

Right... time to pick at that false dichotomy.

"...either deaths matter or they do not." Hashi, since you're insistent on this being a purely digital paradigm... on which side of that self-erected fence do you sit? Do deaths matter to you - or do they not? I am interested in your answer... no equivocation please and no relativism. This according to you is an utterly digital question.

And given your absolutism (which is showing itself pretty much to be a synonym for logical absurdism), here's another question for you... is it ever a good thing for a government to attempt via legislation to mitigate risk to its citizenry? Yes or no? Presumably that must be a digital question to you as well, no? Even though the only logical answer would be a relativistic "it depends".

For example, are you in favour of the increased security checks at airports imposed following 9/11? And again as asked before, but not clearly answered, are you in favour of drink driving legislation? NB I am NOT referring to there being severe punishment for those who cause third party death or injury while drink driving, but instead those caught driving while drunk facing legal sanctions even if they have caused no accident?

I'll bet you're in favour of safety regulations being imposed on manufacturers to mitigate the risk of them supplying unsafe products out to consumers. And I'll bet you're in favour of it being illegal for your next door neighbour to target shoot with a rifle in his backyard.

Sorry, dude. The foundations of your absolutist stance are simply absurd.

And over to Sky's comments. Pretty much bang on the money.

"The actual severity of corona means that there was never going to be a curve which needed to be flattened..." That's pure speculation - and completely fails to allow for the very likely possibility that the curve has only been successfully flattened and the impact of the virus dramatically lessened by the very measures you rail against.

As Sky points out, there is growing hard evidence that the curve has been flattened in most First World nations, precisely through imposed lockdown measures. Just look at the numbers coming in from Brazil and Russia, which she like me has cited as ideal exemplars as to what occurs without rigorous mandated lockdowns.

As Sky also completely correctly states:
Skyweir wrote:Its a significant global health threat .. each nation responding to this very real threat are doing the best they can with the little we know. That means yes sure, some response strategies may be overkill and some will be woefully inadequate.
Precisely.

And it's *that* which should be being argued. Not the efficacy of imposed lockdowns in achieving their stated objective of reducing the R number - because it is by now fully evidenced that they of course do. But whether such imposed lockdowns are worth the concomitant costs (of all types)... *THAT* is the sole question needing to be discussed or deserving of argument. Or to put it as Sky has, are we now in a position to be able to gauge that the degrees to which current lockdown measures have been imposed are on balance overkill?

And on that very subject, I now support the gradual and carefully monitored easing of lockdowns, now that we know more. The severity of current lockdowns is indeed unsustainable - and as everyone surely knew from the get-go, was always going to be thus. Now's the time to ease back on restrictions - BUT the key words are "carefully monitored"...

...and in direct relation to that, I note that today the following has been announced:
BBC.co.uk wrote:Coronavirus: South Korea closes schools again after biggest spike in weeks

More than 200 schools in South Korea have been forced to close just days after they re-opened, due to a new spike in virus cases.

Thousands of students had earlier on Wednesday returned to school as the country began easing virus restrictions.

But just a day later, 79 new cases were recorded, the highest daily figure in two months.

And here's your link.
You may recall that South Korea, through very rapid and prolific use of technology, testing, lockdown measures and contact tracing, was highly successful in keeping coronavirus infections down to noteworthily low levels. Today's news is therefore more than a little perturbing.
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Post by Ur Dead »

The death of one man is tragic, but the death of thousands is statistic.

J. Stalin....

How many of you are quoting the deaths as a statistic?
Maybe you worry about the hole burning in your pocketbook more than
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Post by peter »

We ought, I think, at this stage of our journey down the Covid road, to be able to make a tentative stab at answering the following question. What is the evidence that at anything much less than the level of virtual total self-isolation [the key phrase here] social distancing is an effective means of controlling the spread of the virus? We in the UK have been told on a repeated basis that "we are being led by the science" in our response to the crisis, and given that social distancing is the alter upon which much of our economy is to be sacrificed for at least the foreseeable future [think the hospitality industry, hotels, restaurants, pubs, live sports attendance, festivals and theatre other high attendance events, air-travel, trains....the list goes on] should we not at least be clear that the candle of loss is worth the wick of gain.

No-one, I think [even in this place ;) ] denies the potential severity of this disease in terms of the risk it poses to a limited number of individuals [you can argue about how many, but this is another thing], but the ongoing restrictions in which large swathes of our economic and social activities is also not without consequence and while say, the wearing of face-masks, the cleaning of hands, the temperature scanning of individuals prior to the attendance of these activities are not in the main 'death-blows' to the activities proceeding, the maintenance of the social distancing rules most definitely are.

Should we not be made aware then, of what scientific evidence there is to support the policy - of what percentage of the total benefit in respect of the reduction in transmission the act of social distancing contributes. How much does it bring [as it were] to the party as compared to the other measures I have mentioned if carried out without its inclusion?

Clearly the answer to this is going to be much dependent upon a good understanding of the ways in which the virus can be transmitted and the relative contribution of each way to the whole. I don't know to what degree this has yet been established, but it seems to me that this far into the crisis we should at least have a working knowledge of this area - either that or our scientists have been flying rather too high on borrowed wings.

This social distancing thing is a real killer - in more ways than the virus itself could ever dream of being - and we need to know that it is absolutely worthwhile in terms of the benefit it brings before we adopt it as part of the 'new normal' which, like it or not, will form the basis of our lives for the foreseeable future.
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So pocketbook 🤷‍♀️
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