Watchmen Series?!?!?

[peter]

Saw the final episode last night.

I'm going to be brutally honest and say that for me this series started to go into decline following the episode in which ......no I can't - spoiler, and I hate all that black stuff.

Suffice to say that for me the last two episodes in the series seemed to loose it somehow. It was like a Stephen King story where so much had been put into play, and so well, that any wrapping up was always going to be less satisfactory than the laying of the plot in the first place. In the final denouement it seemed almost to slip into pastiche and the supposedly enigmatic final scene, rather than leave me itching for more came as a relief that I could finally get up and go do something that actually interested me. Good luck to those for whom this is working. Horses for courses and all that.

Alan Moore will not be happy: he won't be happy at all (but then he never is).

[Cagliostro]

I'm going to be brutally honest and say that for me this series started to go into decline following the episode in which ......no I can't - spoiler, and I hate all that black stuff.

I'm not sure what you mean by that, but let me be the first to call you a racist.

Have not seen Legion. May have to check it out though - Jean Smart rocks and I'm in the market for a new obsession.

Three seasons and a complete story, but all are kind of challenging. I found it amazingly amazing, and if the ending had been exquisite, it probably would have gone down as my favorite show of all time. I must own it all as I love it dearly. But it definitely is not to everybody's tastes, and I understand why. It is decidedly weird. There are times, particularly in season 2, where you just have to float on your back in a pool of weird and just drift until it gets to making sense again. There is so much creativity in this show that I can't recommend it enough.

[peter]

More power to your elbow Cag! Glad you enjoyed it. I'm notoriously difficult to please so no surprise that I fell by the wayside toward the end of this. The recent BBC production of Wells' War of the Worlds was the same for me; three episodes, first good, second mediocre, third abysmal. Hey - what are you gonna do!

[Sorus]

I can see how the weirdness level and whatnot might not appeal to everyone - personally, I loved it.

And thanks for the recommendation, Cags, that'll be next on my list.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Okay, finally got around to watching this.

Primary problem number one: Ozymandias killed all of his staff, including the people who worked directly on his main project and he would *never* have taped a timed-delay video of himself explaining what happened to people in the future. Every person who knows is a risk who threatens to undermine the stability of the world...but he knew that Laurie and Dan would not tell and anyone who read the published journal is just believeing the probably-fake ravings of a fringe lunatic.

Agent Petey is clearly the "slippery oil" guy, whom no one here has mentioned even once. Sure, he was not important to this season but it is still a fascinating plot point. He must have been trailing Sister Knight and wanted to be seen, just not caught.

What if Looking Glass actually can tell when someone is lying, but not because he is trained in psychology or can read body language? What if survivors in the immediate proximity had...side-effects...from the psychic blast?

Thus, the precipitating events occurred because the precipitating events occurred.

The "glass jar experiment" was self-sustaining and did not require even a modicum of attention to keep the conditions in place? It didn't collapse the moment he forgot about it? It Manhattan we are considering--who says that was the only one?

Now for spoilery stuff.

Spoiler

Lady Trieu....if she were that smart then she would know that *that* is now how Manhattan's abilities work. They aren't something you can transfer from being to being even though I suppose he could make someone else *like* him who *is not* him. His abilities are the side-effect of him being in a quantum state--time and space don't work for him like they do for us. We are isolated particles while he is more like a standing wave.

Wild speculation here--what if the Vigilante Task Force, of which Laurie is a member, is not there taking masked characters off the streets but is actually bringing them all together into one place. What could someone do with a couple dozen masked vigilantes?

All things considered: pretty strong start, but a mediocre finish.

[wayfriend]

It took me a long time before I got to the final episode. I kind of dreaded it, in a way. I waited for the perfect time to watch it ... which did not ever arrive.

I found the ending worthy of the series. Which is all I needed to find.

There were surprises and reveals. There were unexpected twists. There was that feeling that everything in the story had always fit and served a purpose. There was genuine happiness, and genuine grief. And the conclusion was fitting and satisfying and, despite wishing better for some characters, was upbeat. Those who survived were better for having come that way.

"Masks make men cruel." That was the line we didn't know we needed this whole time.

Spoiler

Angela: Hooded Justice.

Will: Mm.

Angela: The hood.

Will: When I put it on, you felt what I felt?

Angela: Anger.

Will: Yeah, that's what I thought, too.
But it wasn't.
It was fear and hurt.
You can't heal under a mask, Angela.
Wounds need air.

I don't think it was as great of a SINGLE episode as episode 8 or episode 6. But the greatness of those episodes came from elevating the significance of what we were watching. The last episode has to descend into denouement and completion. It can't taunt you by showing there's more cards to play; it has to lay them down.

I think Laurie and Mirror man are going to be a thing going forward, don't you all?

[Sorus]

Agent Petey is clearly the "slippery oil" guy, whom no one here has mentioned even once. Sure, he was not important to this season but it is still a fascinating plot point. He must have been trailing Sister Knight and wanted to be seen, just not caught.

Agent Petey running around in a costume is completely plausible.
Agent Petey investigating Sister Night is completely plausible.
Agent Petey slithering down a drain like he doesn't have any freakin' bones requires a little more explanation.

I know it's basically canon that that was him, but I think it's funnier if they just leave it as an unexplained WTF moment.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Agent Petey slithering down a drain like he doesn't have any freakin' bones requires a little more explanation.

I know it's basically canon that that was him, but I think it's funnier if they just leave it as an unexplained WTF moment.

That was not the first time he has slipped down a storm drain, which is why he knew it would work--lie down flat, exhale, turn head to the side and go. That oil means you won't be grappling him, either, and if he us double-jointed he cannot be handcuffed. I agree about the wtf, though.

I thought the ending was perfectly fine, as well. Trieu took a huge risk, though--there was no way she could know whether or not that would work. Even if it did she would not be the Trieu she was before--her motivations would become different.

[wayfriend]

The conclusion of the series seems to support a partially critical view of Dr. Manhatten. "He should have done more."

I don't agree. I don't think that solving problems by waving a subatomic hand is good for anyone. Especially when it's done by someone who doesn't care.

Viet Nam was a case in point. Dr. Manhattan won the war, and in doing so assured a nuclear holocaust.

I'm not talking about unintended consequences. I am talking about changing the premise of life. Once you start to count on, or to fear, or to plan around, the arbitrary and capricious actions of omnipotent beings, you have forsaken self-determination. Your choices become unimportant to yourself.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Not only that, but Veidt was supposed to smart, so would he not have realized that 1) nuclear holocaust would not kill Jon and 2) Jon could have restored the planet afterwards, including erasing radiation? Couldn't he have asked Jon to copy himself and neutralize the nuclear weapons before they were launched?

Sadly, writers who do not have an IQ of 180 (chosen at random) cannot write characters who do. I couldn't do it, so I am not shaming anyone.

*Why* should Manhattan have done more, Trieu?

[wayfriend]

... and the Eagles could have flown Frodo to Mt Doom. Princess Leia could have transmitted the Deathstar plans over a secure hyperspace link to Yavin 4. And Indiana Jones could have let the Nazis keep the Lost Ark.

But there's not much of a story if you go that way.

So a willing suspension of disbelief is required.

Trieu was a narcissist. So she saw no issue with blasting the world into the shape she wanted. If she could, then she should - Hell, she had to! And so: no compunction against killing Jon.

And she could not imagine why someone else would not do so if they had the chance. (Her objections to the Seventh Cavalry were about the prize, not the means.) Since Jon did not act the way she would have acted, she dismissed him as a failure.

Now Will's comment, on the other hand, is far more interesting. Not only did he play the hero game, he deeply understood how men suffer at the hands of their fellow men. He may genuinely believe that someone stepping in to prevent the myriad injustices that plague men and women would be a good thing.

But I just disagree. Putting men in chains in order to prevent their baser impulses doesn't really make things better. What works is instilling the necessary empathy and kindness. No one may have the secret of doing that (although Jesus went a long way ) But fetters are fetters, whether they are put on you by Dr Manhattan or systemic racism.

I'm kind of disappointed that we don't get to see what happened next. Actually, I'm kinda disappointed that Angela didn't think much about choosing who got the egg.

But her name is "Angela". In this show, that's as clear a sign as you can get.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

... and the Eagles could have flown Frodo to Mt Doom. Princess Leia could have transmitted the Deathstar plans over a secure hyperspace link to Yavin 4. And Indiana Jones could have let the Nazis keep the Lost Ark.

But there's not much of a story if you go that way.

Good point.

Setting her foot into the pool is this show's Rorshach test--did it work, yes or no? Diffrrent people will answer differently and neither answer is incorrect.

Let's hope we get another season. If not, then can we get a rebooted comic series picking up where the show left off?

[Sorus]

Actually, I'm kinda disappointed that Angela didn't think much about choosing who got the egg.

I think she knew that she was chosen. Maybe he already knew what she would do.

I'm not sure what I would have done, in her place. Anyone who actually wants that kind of power has the potential to be very scary. It was satisfying to watch Lady Trieu obliterate the Kavalry, but where does it end? I don't think we're wired for utopia.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Didn't he say he could transfer a portion of his power to some form of "organic liquid"? Wasn't he pretending to be human? What if Angela got pregnant?

Interstingly, Ozymadias' first case was investigating the disappearance of Hooded Justice; it remained a case he did not solve.

Despite Captain Metropolis' objections, wouldn't most of the original Minutemen have pitched in to help take down Cyclops? Of course, then HJ would not have been able to keep the secret of photaic hypnosis for himself.

[Sorus]

Didn't he say he could transfer a portion of his power to some form of "organic liquid"? Wasn't he pretending to be human? What if Angela got pregnant?

That's an interesting thought. How much what-if was there in their relationship? He could see the beginning and the end, but not everything in the middle due to tachyon whatnot. He would have seen that they had adopted kids at the end. It certainly seems plausible that they could have had biological kids. My personal guess would be that he could transfer his power that way, but it would be a conscious choice.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

HBO is making Watchmen completely free this weekend

Image: HBO


An ongoing effort to promote black voices and talent.


[...]

The show, which stars Regina King, Yahya Abdul-Mateen II, and Jeremy Irons, among others, jumps back and forth between different eras, but the focus remains on the conversation of race in America. Watchmen received an abundance of critical praise for its handling of issues like systemic racism and the effect of white supremacy on police forces in the United States.

"It's all of our collective jobs to understand the history of policing in this country," showrunner Damon Lindelof said in a recent Hollywood Reporter roundtable while talking about the show. "We kind of need to understand it, we need to do our homework, and then hopefully that will inform our storytelling."

Notably, HBO is making the series free beginning on June 19th, otherwise known as Juneteenth, a day that many people and some companies celebrate and honor as the day slavery ended in the US. Watchmen will be free from June 19th through June 21st on HBO.com.

[wayfriend]

The Seattle Police

[Rigel]

So, they're going all-out fascist?

Color me surprised.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I just rewatched it again recently and I am still flabbergasted that the scriptwriters did not understand Adrian Veidt at all. He did not have an ego which would want him to desire to be given credit for his actions and sure as hell would never have made a video to a future President bragging about it. He killed hundreds of people to keep the secret, for pity's sake! *gripe* *grumble* *growl*

They still did a good job of using Jon's ability to be in all temporal positions at once to set up the situation whereby the events unfolded as they did because the events unfolded as they did.

The original Minutement would still have gone after Cyclops. They weren't racists, with the possible exception of Captain Metropolis himself.

[wayfriend]

I'm going to do a re-watch shortly.

sure as hell would never have made a video to a future President bragging about it.

I don't think that's a fair description of what that video was for. It seems like it was designed to include Redford in on "the plan" so as to ensure it's continuing success. Perhaps he felt that, by Redford's time, it would need some reinforcing from the President.