Gene Editing and Ethics

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Post by Vraith »

Fist and Faith wrote: Do we now know that intelligence is only a very small number of genes, and, therefore, something we can engineer?
No, we don't know that.
The largest analysis I've heard of looked at IQ and Ed. Achievement of about 100,000 people. All they could say is if you were a person with two copies of three variant genes, on average you'd have and IQ less than 2 points higher than a person with none of the variants. Even then, the vast majority of the peeps were STILL in the center range. And it was still only a probability.
It seems that May is closer to correct. IQ is related to many, many genes with small effects. And that doesn't include the epigenetic.

And many of the co-authors [it had, like, 50 authors or somesuch] said it was very likely that the genes were also involved in other functions...and we have no idea what those other functions might be.

One of the reasons I keep saying, tech-enhancement/add-ons is the way to go.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Vraith wrote:One of the reasons I keep saying, tech-enhancement/add-ons is the way to go.
I'm thinking the same way.

Also, kudos to wf for using the word "cark"! :D
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I'm not plugging anything into my brain. :D

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Post by peter »

Well - not unless it can be rolled up into a jolly and 'plugged in' via a good long time on the same :lol: .
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Avatar wrote:I'm not plugging anything into my brain. :D

--A
I would, in a heartbeat. Adding a USB slot directly connected to my brain would be amazing--storing hundreds of GB of data with instant, complete recall and the possibility of having other useful tools such a scientific calculator for speed and accuracy of calculation is so useful that we should aim for that goal as quickly as possible.
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Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Avatar wrote:I'm not plugging anything into my brain. :D

--A
I would, in a heartbeat. Adding a USB slot directly connected to my brain would be amazing--storing hundreds of GB of data with instant, complete recall and the possibility of having other useful tools such a scientific calculator for speed and accuracy of calculation is so useful that we should aim for that goal as quickly as possible.
I'm not sure if I would or not...until it also included a brain-assisting processor to UNDERSTAND all that data. The information would be convenient...the comprehension revolutionary.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Post by Avatar »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Avatar wrote:I'm not plugging anything into my brain. :D
I would, in a heartbeat. Adding a USB slot directly connected to my brain would be amazing--storing hundreds of GB of data with instant, complete recall and the possibility of having other useful tools such a scientific calculator for speed and accuracy of calculation is so useful that we should aim for that goal as quickly as possible.
To what extent would you be able to maintain your personality? Don't you run the risk of simply being a walking wikipedia then?

--A
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Avatar wrote: To what extent would you be able to maintain your personality? Don't you run the risk of simply being a walking wikipedia then?

--A
I don't see that there would be any risk in becoming something other than I already am. Even if there were some risk then that is a risk I am willing to take.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Avatar wrote: To what extent would you be able to maintain your personality? Don't you run the risk of simply being a walking wikipedia then?

--A
I don't see that there would be any risk in becoming something other than I already am. Even if there were some risk then that is a risk I am willing to take.
I don't see that danger, either. All that extra information might not even be more noticeable than the information we already have in our brains. I don't feel song lyrics in my memory now. I just know a song when I think about it. Probably the same with an artificial memory storage system that gives me access to ALL song lyrics.
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Fist and Faith wrote:
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Avatar wrote: To what extent would you be able to maintain your personality? Don't you run the risk of simply being a walking wikipedia then?

--A
I don't see that there would be any risk in becoming something other than I already am. Even if there were some risk then that is a risk I am willing to take.
I don't see that danger, either. All that extra information might not even be more noticeable than the information we already have in our brains
Probably true...unless they've also digitized and send impulses so you don't just "watch" the porn you have on your drive, you "remember" being/doing it...[and...would that be cheating on your spouse, or not???]

But I still just see a convenience in having all that data on-demand, maybe an increase in efficiency/less time wasted...but maybe not as much time as you think...your brain still has to "read" the data/use it...and perhaps useful in some emergency situations [shit, I'm lost! DAMN, forgot to install the MAPS! Which plants can I eat?].

But without the addition of actually making you smarter, understand more and understand it faster...it's a "meh."
I've used something like this analogy before, but:
Lots of peeps I know or have known have more Shakespeare memorized than I do. And a lot of peeps I know understand Shakespeare at a deeper level than I do.
The two groups have one...or maybe 2...common members. Most of the memorizers could never become scholars. The scholars probably COULD memorize---but it isn't useful for most things, is unlikely to improve comprehension, so they don't.


Or, to quote,
Otto: [superior smile] Apes don't read philosophy.
Wanda: Yes they do, Otto, they just don't understand it!
I sure don't want to be that ape...even a chrome/cyber one, with all of human knowledge on a thumb drive [which could be your actual thumb, if you wanted, for pun purposes...even better, attached after the distal phalanx so it was always at your finger tips...or in the mouth so it was right on the tip of your tongue...]

[[Not that I don't already bear some Otto/ape resemblances]]
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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+JMJ+

CRISPR gene technology poses new moral questions [In-Depth, Interview]
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Editor's Note: Françoise Baylis is University Research Professor at Dalhousie University. She is a member of the Order of Canada and the Order of Nova Scotia, as well as a fellow of the Royal Society of Canada and of the Canadian Academy of Health Sciences. Baylis was one of the organizers of, and a key participant in, the 2015 International Summit on Human Gene Editing. She is a member of the WHO expert advisory committee on Developing global standards for governance and oversight of Human Genome editing. She is the author of Altered Inheritance: CRISPR and the Ethics of Human Genome Editing. She spoke to Charles Camosy.]

[...]

Camosy: Knocking out or editing genes that cause disease in human beings is one thing -- but, as you point out, this raises important ethical questions. Like what counts as a disease at all, who gets to decide what counts as a disease, and what understanding of the good is used in making such decisions. There is also an important question about whether this technology is likely to exacerbate the radical inequality we already have. Can you say more about these concerns?

Baylis: Not only can human genome editing be done in two different kinds of cells, it can also be used for two different purposes -- health-related (therapeutic) purposes and non-health-related (enhancement) purposes. There is, for example, the hope of using human genome editing to treat blood disorders, lung diseases, muscle wasting disorders, cancers, and so on. Beyond this, some hope to use genome editing to make cosmetic changes, to improve cognitive abilities or to promote athletic prowess. For many, non-health-related interventions are ethically controversial.


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Françoise Baylis. (Credit: Courtesy to Crux)


An important worry with heritable human genome editing (where genetic changes are made to subsequent generations) is the ever-widening gap between the haves and the have nots. It is widely assumed that the average person will not be able to afford this technology. Meanwhile, wealthy and powerful elites will be able to use this technology to inscribe their privilege in their DNA.

[...]

Metaphorically speaking the human genome belongs to all of us. In my view, we should all have a say as to whether it should be modified and, if so, to what end. In support of this goal, many of us have called for a moratorium to provide time for careful consideration of the ethical issues. Others object to this idea and, most especially, they object to the m-word.

But inserting desired genes -- sometimes called genetic enhancement -- is something else, right? How likely is that to come about in the near-to-medium term? What different kinds of ethical issues does this raise?

In my own work, I write about health-related and non-health-related interventions. I try to avoid the common rhetoric about therapy and enhancement where it is often assumed that therapy is good, and enhancement is bad. I, along with many others, believe that there is no robust moral demarcation line between therapy and enhancement.

Imagine a future 'wildly hypothetical' (possibly improbable) world in which it is possible to increase a person's height by making a few genetic tweaks. Now imagine a young American boy whose estimated adult height is about 5'2". His parents are worried that he will experience significant discrimination. They want to use genome editing technology to try to increase his height to the average height for American males, which is close to 5'10".

Should the parents be able to modify their son's genome in an effort to protect him from the harms of discrimination? Should the answer to this question depend upon the cause of the short stature? More specifically, should access to future genome editing depend upon whether the boy will be short because of a genetic condition that is widely recognized as a genetic illness or because his parents are short and so he is expected to be "naturally" short? From a different perspective, what if the parents want their child, who is a skilled junior basketball player, to join the Olympic team and for this reason they want to increase their child's height to 7' not 5'10". Should it matter if the desired genetic modification is to gain a competitive advantage as compared with promoting health and well-being?

[...]


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Post by Avatar »

In a sense, the ethics of this are moot...the simple point is that it's going to happen.

And wouldn't it be a net good to edit out genes for degenerative conditions, fatal diseases etc?

Of course, the real problem is what else we might be affecting by interfering with those genes. But we'll figure it out with a few generations. ;)

--A
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Gene Editing and Ethics

Post by Wosbald »

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Scientists created a human embryo without sperm or an egg. We should be disgusted — and worried. [Analysis, Opinion]
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(RNS) — Scientists have created a human embryo without the use of sperm or an egg — a true test-tube baby. Such embryos cannot (yet) develop into full-grown human beings. Even if transplanted into a uterus, the specimen could never attach to the uterine wall.

Yet, what we have here is still a (disabled) human embryo. Without parents.

Are you disgusted? We believe that if you have a well-formed conscience, this is a good and proper reaction to this development.

We cannot always and everywhere trust a reaction of repugnance; at times, such a reaction is simply the result of ingrained biases and stereotypes. But there is often a certain wisdom in our repulsion. Repugnance can assert itself as a moral alarm and response to real moral distress.

This is such a time.

The creation of a human embryo without sperm and egg shares some important similarities with other artificial reproductive technologies, such as in vitro fertilization and certain surrogacy practices that involve the creation of human embryos outside the human body. Perhaps most strikingly, the procedure overlaps the process of modifying genes using novel techniques such as CRISPR-Cas9. In both cases, a manufactured human embryo is the result of direct human intervention.

(click for more)
Spoiler
[…]

[Creating human embryos w/o sperm & egg] also goes beyond what we have seen in previous artificial reproductive technology and genetic engineering techniques. In vitro fertilization and even CRISPR-Cas9 involve direct human intervention in the reproductive process. Yet, all of them work by modifying or intervening with existing human embryos or gametes.

The manufacture of a human embryo without sperm or egg, by contrast, aims to build a human embryo from scratch. The process is less a tweak to human reproduction or bending it to our own will than replacing it with something different altogether. Heretofore we have aimed to eliminate variability, inconvenience or inefficiency from human reproduction. With this new development, the aim is different: to swap human reproduction for a different process entirely.

The charge of playing God comes to mind. The charge is over-attributed and sometimes reveals more about our biases than something morally real, but in this case it is apt. There are at least two kinds of playing God: An overstepping by humans into spheres of action that should be reserved for the divine, and a hubristic attempt to meddle with the world in ways that our all-too-human intellects simply do not understand. In creating human embryos from scratch, we risk playing God in both senses.

One of us is a philosopher and the other a theologian. We are both convinced that a Catholic understanding of reproduction could be a cultural antidote to the toxic understanding of reproduction that has led to the development of an eggless, spermless embryo. Our position is not aligned with some kind of revisionist attempt to “take us back to the 1950s” (or some such dismissive phrase), but is rather at the heart of the perspective that Pope Francis and the Vatican reaffirmed just a few months ago.

As Christianity yields to a consumerist reproductive throwaway culture, the logic of the marketplace takes over. Instead of seeing the creation of new human beings as pro-creation with God (our ultimate creator), who offers them as an unmerited gift, we now think of it as yet another transaction between individuals. I have resources (money, insurance) and you have skills and facilities (medical training and fertility labs)? Well, then who is anyone to come between autonomous actors pursuing their self-interests?

[…]

It may seem, and we may be told, that we can trust the process to stay where it is — that no actual reproduction would ever take place using this new technology. But the history outlined above shows that is a very, very bad bet. In a culture that becomes more and more dominated by the logic of the marketplace and by a commitment to a kind of relativism that welcomes virtually any vision of the good, who are we to impose our view onto others who think differently? They should be able to make their transaction and we should butt out.

It will do us no good to pretend that this is a retreat to a kind of moral neutrality. The marketplace has its own logic and its own goods. It rewards the privileged while exploiting the marginalized. There is no view from nowhere on this question. No neutral place to hide. We can and must explicitly and firmly take a stand with a particular vision of the good. And the Catholic vision stands ready to provide precisely what is necessary in this context.

Unfortunately, there are forces even within the church itself that are apparently trying to undermine the Church’s teaching in this regard — precisely where it is so obviously and importantly true and needed the most. Those of us who agree with Francis’ vision of resisting a consumerist, throwaway culture with the logic of gift and openness to life must redouble our efforts to make our voices heard on this new and repugnant biotechnological development.


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