Let's hear if for Mhoram!

[Drinny]

Nice points, all. I wish to revise my opinion.

There is a third alternative as you say, Fist and Faith - both Mhoram and Kevin were right. I am now leaning towards this now, for the following reasons:

1) The solving of another of Kevin's Wards after TPTP - it shows that a degree of combining took place between Kevin's Lore and the Oath of Peace. This is evidence that Mhoram was not an extremist to any position.

2) Lord Foul would have returned anyway. Yes, this is an excellent point. Despite can never be defeated from within the Arch of Time... it is something else, not governed by the laws of the Creator's Creation. Perhaps losing the staff of law hastened that return, perhaps other things did as well... but Despite can only be countered by something from outside the normal rules of the game, something like the White Gold or the Creator himself.

The error may have been to relax vigilance, and believe Despite completely defeated. In that, the generations after Mhoram certainly erred (as for Mhoram himself in this regard - we know too little about this).

Now, some other points here:

Fist and Faith wrote:

Drinny wrote:

Is pacifism correct? Or being pragmatic? Again, both. Accepting the two opposites is hard, but ignoring the truth of either side of the dilemma is a false solution.

In what way do you believe pacifism is correct?

Well, firstly, I believe wholeheartedly in pacifism (as a sort of example, I am a vegetarian for ethical reasons) - and I also believe in violence as a last resort. Pacifism is morally correct and often impractical, and violence is morally wrong but often necessary. That is the paradox, as I see it.

Fist and Faith wrote:

You know what? I never noticed that the words "white gold" were, themselves, a paradox.

Wow, brilliant! I never thought of that myself, but it makes so much sense.

Fist and Faith wrote:

I think the reason Mhoram didn't despair was... hard to explain

I think that has to do with his faith:

The doom of any creation is upon the head of its Creator. Our work is enough for us. We need not weary ourselves with the burdens of gods.

Mhoram's belief in the Creator helped him bear the difficulties of his time.

Fist and Faith wrote:

BTW, I love your choice of nick. It's amazing how big an impact Drinny made on me with such a small (# of words, that is) role!

Thanks
That Drinny is one inspiring Ranyhyn...

[Reisheiruhime]

That Drinny is one inspiring Ranyhyn

Indeed.

[duchess of malfi]

Bump. This is MUCH too good a thread to be on page 14!!!

[abaddon]

What a great thread!

First a little introduction. I am new to Kevins Watch, so I apologise in advance for not quoting properly and no emoticons! I am writing this based on last reading the whole chronicles more than 12 years ago - I am currently re-reading, just finished Lord Fouls Bane.

The subject of despair is what prompted me to reply to this thread. When reading the chronicles I was always fascinated by Kevin and really liked Mhoram, so a comparison is interesting to me.

What is the opposite of despair? I think it is hope. Kevin had no hope left and so despaired. He saw no other options and so was willing to destroy what he loved to destroy Foul. I think he truly believed he would destroy Foul in the ritual of desecration, but realised at the end that he was wrong - that was his tragedy, he died with that knowledge at the end.

Mhoram, on the other hand still had hope. He had a last miracle to hold out for - the White Gold and Thomas Covenant. I think that is one of the reasons he did not despair. He also had his oath of peace, faith in the creator and the benefit of knowing what happened to Kevin. I always really felt sorry for Kevin - he had absolutely no hope left.

An interesting question would be would Mhoram have enacted the ritual of desecration if there was no white gold? Knowing what happened to Kevin, would he have thought the price was worth paying to reduce Foul for a time?

[Dragonlily]

Based on what Mhoram did at the beginning of THE POWER THAT PRESERVES (I know, you haven't reread that yet ), I am sure that he would not have used the Ritual of Desecration. No matter what, Mhoram would have stuck to his lifelong values, including the Oath.

Oh, and there's that part at the end of POWER THAT PRESERVES... You'll remember when you get there.

[Avatar]

Afternoon folks.

I haven't read this whole thread, as my laziness is strong today, not to mention that I'm pressed for time, but I think that Mhoram had a fine grasp of the concept that all knowledge is morally neutral.

(Yes, I know, I've already said that in another thread about something completley different, but it remains true.)

The "good" or "evil" inherent in any knowledge is only brought about by the use which it is put to. I think this is demonstrated by the power that this knowledge (of desecration) brings him, even though he will not use it for the purposes of Kevin Landwaster.

Take it Easy
--Avatar

[Han-shan]

Indeed. Well said, Avatar. Mhoram understood such things.

"Yet the Earthpower remains, to be used in Landservice - if we are able. But that Power - all power - is dreadful. It does not preserve itself from harm, from wrong use."

"My friends - people of the Land - Thomas Covenant once inquired of me why we so devote ourselves to the Lore of High Lord Kevin Landwaster. And now, in this war, we have learned the hazard of that Lore. Like the krill, it is a power of two edges, as apt for carnage as for preservation."

Of course, this is old news to Amok, eh?

"Can it be used to defeat the Despiser?"

"Power is power. Its uses are in the hands of the user."

"Amok," Amatin said, then hesitated. She seemed almost afraid of her next question. But she clenched her resolve, and spoke it. "Does the Seventh Ward contain knowledge of the Ritual of Desecration?"

"Lord, Desecration requires no knowledge. It comes freely to any willing hand."

[Believer]

You know, I keep wondering if Mhoram made the wrong choice. I mean, obviously its a story, so the results are up to the author. But if he had decided to follow Kevin's Lore and walk that tightrope of passion, would Foul have been able to corrupt the Council and the Earthpower as he did? Or would it have just led to another Desecration?...

Not sure which would have been worse, or maybe, with Mhoram as its leader in the search for Kevin's Lore, they would have found a better answer than Desecration.

Though it seems that Mhoram's leadership wasn't enough to make them see the sunbane and the ease of their accomplishments for what it was. It's a rather awful legacy, I just wonder what the result would have been had Mhoram made a different choice.

[duchess of malfi]

I'm not sure that any choice Mhoram would have made would have been the right one after the breaking of the Law of Death and the weakening of the natural Law following the destruction of the Staff of Law...

Would Kevin's Lore have even been able to help shore up the Law after the destruction of the Staff?

[hierachy]

The way I see it, Foul is getting stronger, or the land (and earthpower is getting weaker).

Before Kevin made the staff of Law, Foul could not corrupt the earthpower, but by the time it was destroyed he could.

Foul built up the biggest army ever in his command in the first chronicals, bigger even that against Kevin when he was actually a member of the council; although this could be attributed to the illearth stone.

Anyway, I think Mhoram made the right choice, and if he had lived long enough he would have found a way to at leat delay the sunbane.

[Believer]

No, I don't think Kevin's Lore could have helped shore up the Law. But it may have helped them recognize that it was too easy to accomplish what they were doing. It may have given them reason to say, Hey, things shouldn't be like this.

Would they have figured out that Foul was corrupting the earthpower and making it easier to do? Maybe not.

It just seems like without Kevin's Lore they didn't have a body of knowledge to draw from, and had to ad-lib things as they went along. Maybe that was a liability.

The first couple wards, at least, seemed to have historical and other knowledge in addition to 'magic' or ways of using Earthpower, etc. So I wonder if things in the later wards would have served as useful warnings, etc.

Or maybe it would even have fostered a different mindset, one that would have been more wary of their successes, more familiar with how the Earthpower should have worked.

I just think it likely that in eschewing Kevin's Lore, they lost a lot, maybe shot themselves in the foot.

Of course, we have no way of knowing if it would have been helpful. Perhaps it would have been inevitable regardless of what Lore they pursued. (But then again, all questions about fiction are speculative )

[clarsen123]

Reading the last several posts on this thread reminded me of a lingering question I had the last time I finished the first Chronicles. Did Mhoram actually surpass Kevin? He avoided the despair, he tapped the power of the Ritual of Desecration for non-destructive means. He didn't have the arrogance. Just a thought. This may have already been discussed ad-nauseum elsewhere.

By the way, where can I get a Krill?

[hierachy]

Reading the last several posts on this thread reminded me of a lingering question I had the last time I finished the first Chronicles. Did Mhoram actually surpass Kevin? He avoided the despair, he tapped the power of the Ritual of Desecration for non-destructive means. He didn't have the arrogance. Just a thought. This may have already been discussed ad-nauseum elsewhere.

By the way, where can I get a Krill?

I believe that Kevin had more "Power" than Mhoram; he created the staff of law, his own lore that was the most powerful known to the land before or since, and he was great enough for the Haruchai to take the vow. However, I think that when it comes to mental fortitude, Mhoram is the greater.

[Byrn]

Not to nit pick, but Berek created the Staff of Law.

[CovenantJr]

Indeed. Kevin didn't create/discover the lore, he just made the made the Wards. Not that I mean to belittle Kevin, but encapsulating knowledge for future is quite different from actually developing it.

[Furls Fire]

Reading the last several posts on this thread reminded me of a lingering question I had the last time I finished the first Chronicles. Did Mhoram actually surpass Kevin? He avoided the despair, he tapped the power of the Ritual of Desecration for non-destructive means. He didn't have the arrogance. Just a thought. This may have already been discussed ad-nauseum elsewhere.

By the way, where can I get a Krill?

Oh clarsen, you jewel!!! Check out the Dissecting the Land forum, and go to The Power That Preserves, Chapter 11: The Ritual of Desecration. My good friend Fist and I have been going rounds on this very subject!!

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1449

That will take you to the thread Happy reading!!!

[matrixman]

After reading through this whole thread, I feel the same as Caer Sylvanus: I'm confused to the point where I don't know if Mhoram was right or wrong anymore.

Since discussion has mutated into talk about the Staff of Law, I want to repeat a question I brought up in the One Tree dissection that I still haven't found a satisfactory answer for: why didn't the Elohim do anything about the destruction of the Staff in TPTP? I can't believe that beings of Earthpower like the Elohim didn't feel the destruction of the single greatest tool of Earthpower ever created. Why couldn't the Elohim put forth power to mend the rip in the fabric of Law caused by the Staff's demise, before Lord Foul had the chance to corrupt it? Were they unable to? Or unwilling? If so, why? Yes, I'm aware that Foul's actual corruption of the Law was a very subtle process that took millenia, so subtle that it went unnoticed. But that doesn't address the initial event--the moment of destruction of the Staff. As soon as Covenant's wild magic toasted the Staff, shouldn't there have been alarm bells going off in Elemesnedene, the home of the Elohim? This wasn't some harmless toy that just got destroyed: it was the STAFF OF LAW, the backbone of the natural order. For beings of Earthpower to ignore its destruction would seem to be the height of irresponsibility to me.

Here's my own half-baked answer until someone gives me a better one: this little problem is merely a by-product of SRD's use of the Staff's destruction to pave the way for the Second Chronicles. The revelation of the Elohim's true stature in TOT leads to some retroactive thinking: if they are supposedly aware of everything, where the blazes were they back in TPTP when all hell was breaking loose in the Land? This did not warrant an Appointed?

[Avatar]

I don't think the Elohim really cared. They had become so wrapped up in their perception that all truth resided in them, that they ceased to do anything but contemplate their own navels.

If the Quest hadn't come to them, would they still have appointed Findail and sent him out alone?

--Avatar

[Variol Farseer]

A hypothesis:

The Elohim are beings of Earthpower, not of Law. Absolutely self-contained, self-sufficient, and self-centred, they demand above all else to be left free to pursue their Würd in their own separate ways. I suspect they regarded the original Staff of Law as a rather horrible device — a staff that enforces the structure of the Earthpower — a machine that can impose discipline on the Elohim! It could be that they regarded the destruction of the Staff as the one good thing to come out of Covenant's earlier visits to the Land.

After fifteen centuries of the Sunbane, they must have grown to appreciate what had really been lost. If the weakness of the Law allowed the Despiser to create such a horror and spread it over a million square miles of territory, it must have had baleful effects on other manifestations of the Earthpower — such as the Elohim themselves. They were no longer the 'laughing faery' people that the Unhomed had visited; they had retreated utterly from the world and even from each other, into a complacent selfishness that (if you ask me) made Kastenessen look good. But because they no longer had anyone to show them what they looked like from the outside, or remind them of what they had been, they remained blissfully oblivious to their own slow decay. In short, they were letting themselves go to seed.

Covenant's return to the Land had, from the Elohim's point of view, four possible outcomes. From best to worst:

1. The Sun-Sage takes the ring and heals the Sunbane without imposing a new Law on the Earth. She then returns to her own place with the ring.

2. The Appointed becomes the ring-wielder and heals the Sunbane himself. This has the disadvantage of leaving one of the Elohim in a dangerously asymmetrical position of power.

3. The Demondim-spawn merges with the Appointed to form a new Staff of Law. This living and sentient Staff will be, if anything, a bigger threat to the independence of the Elohim than the old Staff was.

4. The Despiser gets the ring and breaks the Arch of Time.

By sending Findail along with Covenant and Linden, the Elohim kept all their options open. Findail tried to bring about both the first and second outcomes at different times. From the point of view of the other Elohim, Findail should have been glad of the chance to determine his own fate, especially as he might have the opportunity to take the ring and become the effective master of the Earth. Of course, Findail didn't want to bet his life on such a proposition. He was probably in favour of the idea until he drew the short straw.

To the Elohim, and to Findail above all, the new Staff was a pis-aller, only one degree better than letting Foul destroy the Earth. As it happened, it was the best they could get.

[CovenantJr]

Good answer, Farseer