Altruism - Is it a lie?

[matrixman]

I try not to take an absolute view on most things. The view that altruism doesn't exist is a sweeping one. I'm not prepared to accept that as the whole truth, but I will concede that egoism--the opposite of altruism--is something I see far more of in the world.

[Fist and Faith]

This thread was covered in a Friends episode.

[A Gunslinger]

There is a difference between personal and social altruism, too let us not forget.

I submit that one can be socially altruistic, but personally not so. One may work in a soup kitchen, volunteering time and themselves for no other reason that to help. Lots of people do this or something like it.

My point is altruism need not be accompanied by self-sacrifice. Indeed, by being altruitstic, one grows.

[matrixman]

Good words, Gunslinger. Yours is a reasonable stance I like.

[The Leper Fairy]

This reminds me a lot of The Fountainhead

[Loredoctor]

Revan, I wholeheartedly agree that altruism is a lie. Nietzsche calls it the 'slave morality' - a belief or moral for the weak and disempowered.
I think what matters is the end product, not why one does.

[Revan]

There is a difference between personal and social altruism, too let us not forget.

I submit that one can be socially altruistic, but personally not so. One may work in a soup kitchen, volunteering time and themselves for no other reason that to help. Lots of people do this or something like it.

My point is altruism need not be accompanied by self-sacrifice. Indeed, by being altruitstic, one grows.

a very good point Gunslinger

I don't think one can be personally altruistic either... maybe God... but he ddoesn't exist imo... so... I guess one can't be altruistic at all... I think your point was a great one Gunslinger

Revan, I wholeheartedly agree that altruism is a lie. Nietzsche calls it the 'slave morality' - a belief or moral for the weak and disempowered.
I think what matters is the end product, not why one does.

Do you mean we Nazi's

I think what matters is the end product, not why one does.

yeah. I couldn't agree more with that... but it's a bit sad.

[Baradakas]

This is like your best topic ever Darth!!!

[Revan]

This is like your best topic ever Darth!!!

No it isn't. I've made better.

But thanks Baradakas

[Avatar]

On the whole, I agree.

However, I don't think that the "selfish" reason for doing good is necessarily a conscious one.

As someone mentioned, when you put money in the Salvation Army tin, you're not thinking, let me do this to feel good about myself. So, the result for you is that feeling of self-worth, (created by your own guilt for having, while others do not), but the ulterior motive is not your "motivator".

Great topic Darth.
Take it Easy
--Avatar

[Revan]

On the whole, I agree.

However, I don't think that the "selfish" reason for doing good is necessarily a conscious one.

So we're naturally selfish, without thinking about it; isn't that worse?

As someone mentioned, when you put money in the Salvation Army tin, you're not thinking, let me do this to feel good about myself. So, the result for you is that feeling of self-worth, (created by your own guilt for having, while others do not), but the ulterior motive is not your "motivator".

Great topic Darth.
Take it Easy
--Avatar

Self-worth... pretty selfish reason to give money... to make yourself feel good. But we're not thinking that we're selfish..... but that doesn't make the fact that it is a selfish reason at the core go away.

Good point though Avatar

Someone mentioned about Firemen being selfless... I responded and countered that point... Who was the person who made that point? Anyways... the point is, at the core, if we feel nothing about it, or there is nothing in it for ourselves, we don't do it.

[Avatar]

Self-worth... pretty selfish reason to give money... to make yourself feel good. But we're not thinking that we're selfish..... but that doesn't make the fact that it is a selfish reason at the core go away.

No it doesn't, but to my mind, there is a difference between a selfish result, (i.e. feeling good after doing a "good" deed) and a selfish motivation (doing it because you'll feel good). The first kind's "reward" is secondary to the action, the second kind's "reward" is central to it.

On Firemen: On another forum, I've corresponded(?) with a fireman in my own country, who says that if he had the opportunity to choose differently, and get a job with better money etc. he would still go for fire-fighting again. He finds satisfaction in it. It's a better motivation than doing it for the money, I think. I certainly wouldn't accuse him of selfishness in the sense that it's for his own "feel-good" needs that he does it. I respect those who are willing to put their own lives on the line, regardless of their actual motivations. I know I couldn't do it.

--Avatar

[Revan]

He wouldn't do it if he didn't get paid. If he did, he would just volunteer.

And let's face it, most fire's aren't actually deadly... (I know any fire can spread blah blah, so don't respond bitching) they're usually small ones, and if any that are really likely to kill you, they don't go until the fire is out...

I'm being a git... I know... I respect them as well... but they're not selfless.

[matrixman]

Hey, Darth, you've been repeatedly telling people not to bitch in their responses here, but from the tone in your own posts, I think it's you who's been doing the bitching. No one would accuse you of being altruistic after this, that's for sure.

Just an observation.

If I sound a little hot under the collar myself, it's because I think firefighters are being unfairly targeted here. What about the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks? Do you forget the firefighters and all those on that day who put their lives on the line so that others could escape the burning towers? From what I've gathered from watching interviews with surviving firefighters, most of them knew that they would have very little hope of coming back alive, yet they didn't turn away. That doesn't sound to me like people who are only interested in their paychecks.

[Loredoctor]

Therefore they believe in something grander. It is the reward of this that keeps people doing altruistic things.
On a further note, altruism is not natural nor a part of human nature. Anyone who understands genetics and evolution will realise that an altruistic 'gene' will die out. Simply because selfish organisms will capitalise on any altruistic organism.
Anyway, ultimately we feel good about being altruistic. This makes us do it. Does that make doing good deeds bad? No. Altruism is not a lie if the act works. Altruism is a lie when one claims it is selfless.

[Baradakas]

I find it more than a little saddening that you feel that way Urvile. I would help any member of this board if they needed me, and never would I reflect on any likely reward. Nearly all of the people here are GOOD PEOPLE, and my purpose in helping any of you, (even some who might not deserve it) would truly be altruistic, as I would never think to ask for a reward, nor would I expect one.

Too bad no one else feels the same.

Except you Matrixman.

[Loredoctor]

Don't be sad, Baradakas. I would help anyone if they needed help, but that doesn't mean altrusim seves some social or personal function. It is particulary interesting that only animals, including humans, that live in close-knit bonds act altruistically. It is in their interests. You don't see altruism in solitary animals.
Again, this does not mean altruism is wrong; it simply means we have an underlying motive for doing so. Anyone who feels bad about that need to understand that the END is what counts - that someone has been helped.

[Revan]

hmmm... So you'd both help a member in need, eh? Fine, I'm having some financial trouble; give me a grand, both of you.

You offered, not me

Anyways, you can be a good person without being altruistic; I suppose. They're are many good people here too. I mean just being you do something for a selfish reason, doesn't make it wrong. The concepts of right and wrong aren't factual; it differs from person to person.

[danlo]

I've done some altruistic deeds--if I've kept them to myself apparently I've forgotten them--which seems appropriate. Most, though I eventually brag about I guess I'm weak I seek attention and self gratification. Yes it really seems to cheapen the act-but the act is still important. Altruistic is a stupid word anyway-only saints understand what it truly means

[duchess of malfi]

I think this is simply something that I will never agree with with most of the people here. To me altruism really does exist, and have experienced it many times. It is a fact in my life...