Any negative views?

[Lambolt]

this was supposed to be a thread about negative views, so why are some of you so keen to disparage those views. There are plenty of threads praising the book, can't we just have one single thread discussing the points we don't like

The long amazon review above describes perfectly the problem. Runes is far and away the poorest of the 7 books. I find it hard to believe anyone could think differently, but I respect your right to do so, but maybe in your own threads?

Story was fairly boring, lacking in scope, same old rehashed characters and issues, no multiple threading of stories, no real sense of drama or climax. It is what it is, a prologue, and the prose itself is poor in many ways, such as the dreadful editing which leaves several words repeated ad infinitum.

This is nothing to do with the lack of TC, or our expectations, other than expecting a thrilling read. Other than one or two highlights, I found the book fairly boring. Sorry, not a little bit poorer than for example the Illearth War, but orders of magnitude poorer.

[Lambolt]

another amazon review i found hit the mark

I do recall being frustrated in the first series about how many pages were dedicated to Covenant's self-examination, self-doubt and denial but I also remember some very engaging characters and subplots that provided relief. By page 388 almost NOTHING had happened in this book. Sure he has to set up the passage of time and Linden's life on earth, but for goodness sake this book reads like Robert Jordan: lets think about what to do, move a few miles, meet some new folks, think about what do, move a few miles, think about what to do, blah blah blah. Oh yeah, every 2 pages stop the plot (what little there is) and spend 5 pages on Linden's inner struggle. If I hadn't loved the first trilogy and liked the second I'd have put this book down.

Second issue I have is mentioned by an earlier comment. The entirety of recorded human history on the planet Earth, China included, is only about 6,000 years. So far the Covenant series has encompassed nearly a 7,000 year span and we are dealing with essentially the same culture, the same races and even the same cities and buildings. Sumer, Egypt, Rome, the Crusades, the various European Empires have risen and vanished in that same time period.

[Mistweave]

Firstly, I have just finished the book and I loved it. However...

Runes is different to the 1st and 2nd Chrons in several ways which do leave some disappointment with me.

Each book in the previous series provided so many new visions and each giving a strong sense of wonder. They are less prevalent here.

The book also uses many aspects (characters, places, beings) which are essentially the same as we have read before, even if they are used in different way.

Thirdly, because of the compacted time (pun intended) of this part of the tale (only a few relative days for Linden), I think the epic nature of the story feels diminished when compared, for example, to the months of journeying aboard Starfarer's Gem.

Finally, I feel like I've been reading a mystery novel without being given the solution. There are so many character/powers unknowns dropped in our laps and so few mysteries of the land being revealed (we know them from previous chrons) it feels more frustrating. Each of the previous volumes had a more discrete end, even though the main goal had yet to be achieved. With Runes it feels more like a commercial break than the end of an episode.

As I continue typing however, I think that these problems of feeling unsatisfied are simply because I have had the appetizer and it has just made me hungrier for the mains. I think we all need to write to the publisher and tell them to send SRD home to write and stop dragging him all over the countryside.

Second issue I have is mentioned by an earlier comment. The entirety of recorded human history on the planet Earth, China included, is only about 6,000 years. So far the Covenant series has encompassed nearly a 7,000 year span and we are dealing with essentially the same culture, the same races and even the same cities and buildings. Sumer, Egypt, Rome, the Crusades, the various European Empires have risen and vanished in that same time period.

It's interesting that this is an issue for some people. I actually feel it's right for the Land (not all of the world the Land is a part of). The Land is one of the focal points to the world and it is a clear expression of Earthpower which manifests in a fairly stable way after the first Staff of Law was formed. I'll be curious to see the earlier times of conflict amongst the humans, etc.

[Satansheart Soulcrusher]

I think it's good that TC doesn't put in much of an appearance. After all, the guy is dead and has been for 3,500 years. He can't just pop up all hale and well right at the beginning and say "hi" like nothing's happened.

In TOT, when Covenant was in his Elohim-imposed stasis or mental coccoon, the focus on Linden was a welcome change. We learn more about Linden there and we see her go through her own crises, rather than dealing with TC's all the time.

[Revan]

I think it's good that TC doesn't put in much of an appearance. After all, the guy is dead and has been for 3,500 years. He can't just pop up all hale and well right at the beginning and say "hi" like nothing's happened.

Ahhh.... very true my friend. Although it was needed, his lack of involved still upset me.

[Satansheart Soulcrusher]

I thought it lacked the emotional fire of previous books.. Linden is way to certain of herself... or at least, if she isn't, she doesn't dwell on doubt the way Thomas did. She's no unbeliever I guess.

I think you're missing the point.

Maybe she's not an unbeliever, but remember that when Covenant first came to the Land he was sick and it was beautiful - that's why he couldn't / wouldn't believe in it. To him it was a dangerous, possibly fatal delusion. When she saw it, it was sick and in need of healing - and she's a healer. That's what she does. So she didn't disbelieve in the Land in the way that TC did, once she accepted it as real, she sought to heal its sickness and hurt.

In the 2nd Chrons, Linden was tormented by her own demons (her parents, the touch of a Raver, her health-sense making her vulnerable to the Sunbane). At the end of WGW she transcends her own boundaries - she is possessed by a Raver and yet she is able to break free. She takes Covenant's ring and uses it to form a new Staff of Law (no mean feat in itself). Then she undoes the Sunbane by opening herself up to its evil, allowing it to violate her in a way that is worse than any rape - enduring the torment herself so that she can heal the Land. Ultimately she returns to her own world, knowing that Covenant is dead and that she will never see him again.

If she seems too sure of herself or doesn't seem to doubt herself so much in RotE, it's because she has overcome her crises; (most importantly for her) she has escaped the legacy of her parents; she has banished her demons; she has reached her apotheosis and come out of it stronger.

And is it any wonder that she seems certain? Part of that must be determination. Foul has taken her son. The one person, no matter how damaged, that she loves more than anything (except TC, and he's supposedly dead), and Foul has taken him. Nothing is going to stand in her way. She has already proven herself capable of incredible feats of power and love in WGW, now she will move heaven and earth, quite literally, to get Jeremiah back.

Any mother that had her child taken from her would do the same, and Linden is now stronger than ever and as sure as steel.

[Davies_Hyland]

"Let me say to you one thing further,
and I risk much in saying this.
When you come to the crux
and you stand before the Despiser,
Remember the paradox of White Gold
For there is hope in contradiction"

- Lord Morham's shade in Andelain

"And he who holds the White Gold is a paradox
For he is everything and nothing
Hero and fool.
Potent and Helpless

And with one word of Truth or treachery
He will Save the Land
Or destroy it."

- traditional



Perhaps those who love "Runes" and those who hate it
are not really on opposite sides of things...

There is hope in contradiction...

[Aleksandr]

First of all, Linden is not nearly as compelling a character as Covenant. She is not a leper, she is not responsible for Elena's misdeeds, etc.

Although I am not of the Linden-hating club, I do agree with this. In the 2nd Chrons Linden actually was fairly compelling (perhaps I relate to her more than others since my mother died of camcer too, and I had a brother who committed suicide) but her conflicts are pretty well resolved and there are no fresh internal conflicts facing her at the beginning of Runes. At the end of the 1st Chrons of course TC’s conflicts were partly resolved too (but he was still a leper, still somewhat isolated) and when the 2nd Chrons began Joan’s return as a madwoman reopened all his old wounds. In principle Jeremiah’s kidnapping might have caused a similar meltdown in Linden but it doesn’t. She just gets mad about it—which is a valid human reaction certainly, but it doesn’t create any real character growth for her.
As for Linden’s relationship with the Land, I was really expecting that we would find out that something she had done in the 2nd Chrons would come back to haunt her—that whatever the trouble was now, would prove ultimately due to some mistake she had made then, in much the same way that the destruction of the Staff of Law (and underlying that, Lena’s rape) was the source of the Sunbane. But at the end of Runes we are not even sure exactly what the problem is in the Land. We know of some discrete threats (Kevin’s Dirt, now the Demondim, the misguided Mastery of the Haurchai, Kastenessen and a vague mention of Sandgorgons, and Croyel) and we can be sure Foul is up to something, but nothing really ties it all together. I wish Donaldson had given us (and Linden) something more to go on, so we would, at the very least, be at the point we were at in TWL when the Soothtell ended.

[burgs]

I find it hard to believe anyone could think differently, but I respect your right to do so, but maybe in your own threads?

In the threads where praise is interspersed, there are plenty of dissenting opinions. The threads here belong to everyone. People that disagree with anything have a right to say so, as long as they're not flaming, anywhere they want to say it.

Moving on, with regard to the Land's lack of development, I do find it strange that there is still a Mithil Stonedown. It does seem to go against the typical advancement of culture. But this isn't Europe, Sumer, Egypt, China - it's The Land. It's *not real*. It's a place governed by Earthpower. I'm willing to grant SRD some leeway.

I really disagree with any comparison between this and Robert Jordan's works. That's like comparing this with something by Terry Brooks. Jordan started something terrific, but has dropped the ball. Brooks never had anything good. Even if you don't like what you're seeing here, you know that you're going to like what's going to happen in the 2nd book.

[aiken]

I agree with burgs66 in that SRD's narrative style is cleaner than the previous 2 TC series. I also share the sentiment that millennia pass, without much change, and that, in and of itself, makes the story seem a bit contrived. There is certainly no sense of history like there is in LOTR.

I also think there is no way we, on this thread, can really talk about what we don't like without mentioning what we do like, because what we do like gives context that what we don't. I thought Runes was thinly plotted and the end a bit contrived or formulaic--I antcipated it, unfortunatley. Anele was just a PITA--I was too annoyed by his character to care about him at the end. And, like Mirror of her Dreams, was mostly a set-up for the next book. But, all of that said, I enjoyed SRD's leaner prose, and his ability to plot out difficult moral issues. You get the sense that there is something larger at stake, and this is not a run of the mill D & D takeoff, a fantasy caricature or an overly plotted money maker that will take 12 or 14 books to complete.

[burgs]

Regarding Linden - there is something that she has done that is affecting the Land, and has been affecting the Land for a very long time. She gave Joan her ring, thus creating the caesures. She is utterly responsible for that, and I thought that SRD painted her guilt pretty well.

[birdandbear]

I just finished yesterday, so this is my first time in here....

Burg, I agree with you - I thought Linden's culpability was well painted....there was even a line near the end that reminded me achingly of TC -something like "she had been in the land only a few days and already she needed so much forgiveness...."

That said, I think you all must be crazy.

I loved every page of this book from start to finish. It took off with a bang and never slowed down, for me. Reading it involved several all night reading sessions because I just could NOT put it down. I commented several times to LM that there just was no place to stop.....too much was going on. I was thrilled with the caesures, time travel in the Land was exhillerating to me.....there were DEMONDIM!!! And they had the power of the original Illearth Stone.....

I loved most of the new characters.... Liand and Stave especially. And I loved seeing the Ranyhyn and their Ramen again. Esmer and Anele were fascinating...

But in keeping with the thread....things I didn't like....

I agree, maybe a bit more of Foul's malevolence would not have been amiss....
I wanted to punch these Haruchai more than any others in the past...(but maybe that's a good thing after all....conflict in the reader is, after all, an emotional response...)
It ended too soon.....
And I thought the Ramen were a bit too peripheral...I wanted to see more character development, especially for Pahni and Bhapa - but all in good time....there will be three more books.

All in all, I thought Runes blew The Dark Tower out of the water.....and that's saying quite a lot for me.

[Satansheart Soulcrusher]

I agree, maybe a bit more of Foul's malevolence would not have been amiss....

He's just getting warmed up...

I wanted to punch these Haruchai more than any others in the past...

Here's betting they'd punch you harder...

It ended too soon.....

Come on, the last chronicles will be one book longer than the first or second, there's plenty of scope for events to unfold yet.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Satansheart, many good points, I definately see the logic in what you're saying. Still, that doesn't mean I think it makes quite as good of a story, in terms of emotional impact
But I concede, it's definately logical....

I sense a little bit of Elena in this incarnation of Linden. Maybe it's that determination to do anything in her power to save Jeremiah. I just think it will lead her to bad decisions. Regardless, it will be a long wait for the next volume.

[Satansheart Soulcrusher]

I think that even though Linden never knew Elena and only heard her sorry tale secondhand, nevertheless she has learned from Elena's mistakes that power alone is not enough. Elena thought to wield the power of Earthblood as a weapon against Foul, but power without control is as likely to harm the wielder as anyone else.

Linden learns to channel the power of wild magic (the most potent source of power in all the Land) into a precise tool that is so controlled that it is even apt for healing - something Covenant could never achieve, he wielded his white fire like a club or a sword, swinging it wide and hitting anything that happened to get in the way. Linden has a healer's instinct however, and wields the wild magic like a surgeon's scalpel - precise and neat, focussing it to a point like a laser to touch exactly where it is required.

As for emotional impact, read it again. Linden goes through a whole range of emotions - what could make a mother more emotional than having her son taken from her? The difference however is in how she reacts. She does not break down and cry in a useless heap, she resolves to fight the Despiser to free her son, even if she risks her own destruction and that of the Land - Foul will not keep her from her son.

Yes, in that respect she is as dangerous as Elena, however Elena was heedless of the risks. Linden is aware of the risks and yet prepared to hazard them nonetheless. I think that for this reason Linden will succeed in destroying the Despiser once and for all, if only because her passion and her power are balanced by her dispassionate control of her emotions and her doctor's instincts for healing rather than for destruction and Desecration. "Some infections have to be cut out".

Think of Kevin's invocation of the Ritual as a nuclear bomb dropped on the Land. I think Linden will eventually wield the same or a greater power focussed like a lance or spear and aimed at the Despiser's black heart.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

I always thought that the idea that some infections had to be cut it was not supported by the text, frankly.
Was it not said, back in the real world, that she would readily give Covenant's son the white ring for Jeremiah? What has changed that she wouldn't do the same thing again, in the land? I think she would sacrifice anything and everything for her son.
And remember, the ritual was done in despair. The despiser can't be defeated that way. I also think she has a pretty serious heart of hatred and vengeance towards lord foul for her son's capture. I never noticed SRD rewarding those kinds of impulses...

[Satansheart Soulcrusher]

Oh yeah she's full of hatred and vengeance, but not despair and certainly not self-despite. Those are the emotions upon which Foul feeds but she is above them. Her hatred is directed at Foul, not herself, therefore she is better prepared than Covenant was to fight Foul.

However... this is only the first of 4 books that will make up the Last Chrons. TC and Jeremiah's presence might suddenly change the focus of Linden's emotions, her anger and hatred might become directed at herself and she may yet wreak the destruction of the Land.

As for not trading the ring for Jeremiah, in the "real" world, the ring has no power and she does not believe she will ever return to the Land. Therefore she will willingly sacrifice it to preserve her son. However, once she has returned to the Land, the whole game has changed. She loves the Land and she loves her son. There is only one force in the land puissant enough to enable her to fight Lord Foul to get Jeremiah back - the wild magic that destroys peace. Fortunately for Linden and the Land, she has the sense to hang onto the ring.

[skurj]

I have not felt a compassion or closeness with any of the new characters the way I did 20 years ago.

I think you've hit it on the head. In reading, I never really identified with any of the characters.

SPOILERS!

The evil of Lord Foul and Roger seems a bit mundane--as if they're evil because they have to be. They seem kind of bored with their wickedness.

Also, it seems like all the characters in the Land are obsessed with things that happened thousands of years ago...as if not much has been going on since then--as if history's been waiting for Linden to come back again.

I just want to shake those Haruchai and shout "Snap out of it!"

Linden figures out how to unleash the wild magic and then forgets again.

And the illearth stone is being channeled through time. Maybe that's interesting and then again maybe it kinda feels like a lack of creativity.

I had a hundred complaints in reading it and then when I'd finished I found that I really missed it. I didn't want it to be over. I think I'll like it more on a second reading.

Beware the puissant halfhand!

Did anyone else read the first part about Linden on Kevin's Watch looking down at Kevin's Dirt and think for a moment that Linden had arrived in the midst of the Land's Industrial Revolution? Maybe it was just me.

[brinn18]

haha, Skurj that was the exact thing I was thinking when I first read about Kevins dirt.
I mean its been 4000 years, it could happen..... right (shifts eyes)

[W.B.]

but her [Linden's] conflicts are pretty well resolved and there are no fresh internal conflicts facing her at the beginning of Runes.

I agree with this. Her main objective in this is opening salvo (and I agree with others that it appeals less to some members precisely because it is setting up material for three more books) is to rescue Jeremiah, which sounds like a "power" kind of conflict. She wants to wrest her son from Foul. She hasn't, I think, confronted much of the moral implications of her goals in the Land. Although certainly she feels guilt for what her past actions have done to the Land. She just hasn't looked forward as much yet.

I actually found Stave to be an interesting character, precisely because he does arrive at a moral crossroads and makes a choice. However, this internal struggle is not as evident as Covenant's or Linden's because he is not a P.O.V. character and the Haruchai are by nature reserved.

I also liked Anele. On the downside the Ramen were not as well-developed as individuals as I would have liked. Liand is a bit of a cipher, typical earnest, young, excited naive guy, but I expect SRD will lower the boom on him at some point, if for no other reason than to make Linden feel bad about involving him.