OK...
This thread is just to maybe help me understand a little bit of how those who believe in God, the afterlife, souls and salvation think.
At what point do you believe that life begins? More importantly, I want to understand at what point you believe that life is given a soul? Is it at conception?
And furthermore, at what point is that soul responsible for it's own actions?
If a newborn or young child die, are they automatically sent off to heaven? What of a six year old? Or a 10 year old? At what age is it that the child is responsible for their beliefs that will determine if they go to Heaven or Hell?
If it is something along the lines of their baptism or christening, what if their parents did not get their children baptised or christened? Is the child accountable for their parent's or guardian's procrastination or lack of belief?
Life begins at... ? (not a Roe v. Wade discussion)
Moderator: Fist and Faith
Life begins at... ? (not a Roe v. Wade discussion)
Last edited by jelerak on Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Oh, so it's just a simple question.... 
Well, let's see.....Life begins at conception. To me, that's a very simple fact of biology, really has nothing to do with my religion. It stands to follow, that the soul is attached at conception.
As far as unbaptized children and Heaven, my understanding is that the Catholic Church no longer teaches that unbaptized children go to Purgatory (mine doesn't, I'm assuming it's universal).
Responsibility is a whole different ball of wax. From a Catholic point of view, I suppose that would be at the point of Confirmation. From any other point, I'd suppose it varies from person to person.
Well, let's see.....Life begins at conception. To me, that's a very simple fact of biology, really has nothing to do with my religion. It stands to follow, that the soul is attached at conception.
As far as unbaptized children and Heaven, my understanding is that the Catholic Church no longer teaches that unbaptized children go to Purgatory (mine doesn't, I'm assuming it's universal).
Responsibility is a whole different ball of wax. From a Catholic point of view, I suppose that would be at the point of Confirmation. From any other point, I'd suppose it varies from person to person.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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I sincerely believe that life begins at conception. To me, that is true.
It's the whole spiritual thing that confuses me.
Case in point...I have two children, both boys. A four year old and a 3 month old. Neither have even been in a church as of yet. My general feeling towards the church, and organized religion is not very positive. My wife claims to be Catholic, but she has made no effort to do anything one way or the other. Religion is one discussion / debate / argument that she refuses to have with me.
So, should there be an afterlife...a God, a Heaven, a Hell...will my children be persecuted for my failures in getting them baptised or christened? That doesn't seem entirely fair to them. But I just do not trust organized religion. Period.
What would be God's take on this? Is this something that is discussed anywhere in the Bible? Not anywhere that I have found, at least.
You see, just because I choose not to believe, and my wife is not motivated to take care of this, I worry about my children. If I am wrong, and there is a God, what of my children?
It's the whole spiritual thing that confuses me.
Case in point...I have two children, both boys. A four year old and a 3 month old. Neither have even been in a church as of yet. My general feeling towards the church, and organized religion is not very positive. My wife claims to be Catholic, but she has made no effort to do anything one way or the other. Religion is one discussion / debate / argument that she refuses to have with me.
So, should there be an afterlife...a God, a Heaven, a Hell...will my children be persecuted for my failures in getting them baptised or christened? That doesn't seem entirely fair to them. But I just do not trust organized religion. Period.
What would be God's take on this? Is this something that is discussed anywhere in the Bible? Not anywhere that I have found, at least.
You see, just because I choose not to believe, and my wife is not motivated to take care of this, I worry about my children. If I am wrong, and there is a God, what of my children?
To me, life begins at conception.
As for responsibility - in Baptist doctrine this is referred to as the "age of accountability" and there is no set age. It is more of a relative age, depending on the child. Here's how Baptists teach this - we are all born with the capacity for sin. I have a 3 year old daughter who is simply precious, but when I catch her standing over the spilled chocolate milk in the floor and I ask her "Livie, who spilled the milk?" She'll always say "I don't know." You see, the ability to lie is inherent in her nature. The thing about it now is - she doesn't know that lying is bad or wrong. I can tell her "You shouldn't lie" but she doesn't have the ability at the young age of 3 to understand that she is doing something wrong. A 10 year old, on the other hand, would have the understanding that lying is wrong, and would be accountable for that sin. Clear as mud?
So, according to Baptist doctrine, an unsaved child that dies before the age of accountability goes to heaven, an unsaved child that dies after the age of accountability does not.
The only instance in the Bible that I"m aware of that illustrates this is when David's firstborn son dies shortly after birth. The grieving David says (paraphrasing) "He cannot come back to me, but I can go to him."
As for responsibility - in Baptist doctrine this is referred to as the "age of accountability" and there is no set age. It is more of a relative age, depending on the child. Here's how Baptists teach this - we are all born with the capacity for sin. I have a 3 year old daughter who is simply precious, but when I catch her standing over the spilled chocolate milk in the floor and I ask her "Livie, who spilled the milk?" She'll always say "I don't know." You see, the ability to lie is inherent in her nature. The thing about it now is - she doesn't know that lying is bad or wrong. I can tell her "You shouldn't lie" but she doesn't have the ability at the young age of 3 to understand that she is doing something wrong. A 10 year old, on the other hand, would have the understanding that lying is wrong, and would be accountable for that sin. Clear as mud?
So, according to Baptist doctrine, an unsaved child that dies before the age of accountability goes to heaven, an unsaved child that dies after the age of accountability does not.
The only instance in the Bible that I"m aware of that illustrates this is when David's firstborn son dies shortly after birth. The grieving David says (paraphrasing) "He cannot come back to me, but I can go to him."
So then a child who dies 'after' the age of accountability, and has not been saved (which no child at say, age 10, can make that decision for themself) is sentenced to Hell for eternity?
Because their parents were at fault for neglecting that duty?
What sense does that make? How is that fair?
If this is what religion is teaching, then that just magnifies my negative feelings towards it.
Because their parents were at fault for neglecting that duty?
What sense does that make? How is that fair?
If this is what religion is teaching, then that just magnifies my negative feelings towards it.
Yeah, I'll agree with DLB here. At 10, a child can't go to church by himself, but he can differentiate between right and wrong, and is beginning to have a sense of self. My daughter will be 10 in April, has been raised Catholic for the last 4 years, and is able to reason her way through situations("what would Jesus do" and so forth).
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
I was raised in a fundamentalist home, and I can certainly testify to the fact that a child of 10 can understand eternal damnation. I heard hellfire and brimstone preached from the pulpit of every church that I ever went to as a child.
I can say that Baptists are not the only Protestant sect that believes this way - many Pentecostal churches have similar teachings. I don't know about other Protestant denominations.
I can say that Baptists are not the only Protestant sect that believes this way - many Pentecostal churches have similar teachings. I don't know about other Protestant denominations.
The child can only know if the child is taught. Is it the parent's responsibility to teach the child in something that the parent does not believe?
My children will not be raised in the church. They will not learn of God at home. Are they damned for their ignorance? For that, are they damned to Hell (should there be one) if they don't make their choice before they die?
My children will not be raised in the church. They will not learn of God at home. Are they damned for their ignorance? For that, are they damned to Hell (should there be one) if they don't make their choice before they die?
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ChoChiyo
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God does not send children to hell.
Period.
Children, even if they know the difference between right and wrong, are still innocents. They do not grasp the cosmic significance of sin and all of that hoo-ha. God loves the little children. He would not send them to hell, just as you, as earthly fathers, would not drop your child into the open maw of a volcano if they lied about spilling milk or leaving the bike in the driveway.
As far as when life begins, I believe life for us all began near about the time God created everything. It says somewhere in the old testament that God knew our names before we were born. When I read it, I got the distinct impression that it was before we were even conceived.
Throughout the new testament, Jesus talks about "the intent of the heart" (I don't know if it is phrased exactly right)--but I believe that if your intentions are good and pure, it doesn't really matter if you are Baptist or Catholic or Charismatic or Buddhist. God calls all good unto himself.
Read The Last Battle by C.S. Lewis. He puts it much more succinctly and eloquently that I ever could.
Any god who would pitch children into hell is no god at all.
Period.
Children, even if they know the difference between right and wrong, are still innocents. They do not grasp the cosmic significance of sin and all of that hoo-ha. God loves the little children. He would not send them to hell, just as you, as earthly fathers, would not drop your child into the open maw of a volcano if they lied about spilling milk or leaving the bike in the driveway.
As far as when life begins, I believe life for us all began near about the time God created everything. It says somewhere in the old testament that God knew our names before we were born. When I read it, I got the distinct impression that it was before we were even conceived.
Throughout the new testament, Jesus talks about "the intent of the heart" (I don't know if it is phrased exactly right)--but I believe that if your intentions are good and pure, it doesn't really matter if you are Baptist or Catholic or Charismatic or Buddhist. God calls all good unto himself.
Read The Last Battle by C.S. Lewis. He puts it much more succinctly and eloquently that I ever could.
Any god who would pitch children into hell is no god at all.
Empress Cho hammers the KABC of Evil.
"If Ignorance is Bliss, Ann Coulter must be the happiest woman in the universe!"
Take that, you Varlet!
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lurch
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Concerning the thinking process
...First of all,,i believe in a supreme being...its supremenist is beyond imagination and therefore understanding, as is its being.
...so ,,i qualify to help in your endeavor Jel
...Try this on....Your original question,,at what point life begins...is pre judged. Life doesn't begin and end..It simply continues. hold on now..not so fast...I am not saying ,,when the body stops functioning,,the life force leaves this plain of existance and goes to another..How would I know? It could, but I don't know. No, there is another way of seeing Life,,as long as there is a sperm and egg..and cells dividing..life continues. An analogy perhaps...just because a leaf becomes seperated from the twig,,and drys up and falls apart..doesn't mean the tree died. Take a few steps back from the Me, I and or You,,and see the point of survival of the species,,then take it out another million Light years to the perspective of the " Life Force"...is it a characteristic, a development ,of any successful,,natural,,Universe? or does a Life Force exist as a by product of all Universes,,whether they implode after only a billion years or expand into infinite until they literally evaporate?..I mean, life has been around millions of times longer. than Humans have.
..Concerning the soul..how convenient...man invented himself a Soul. Thats one way to see " soul"..
The idea of human acquiring a soul apon some completion of a ritual or another..again may be pre judged..Perhaps "soul" is something etheral that joins us..Its there, waiting for us to come to it. We don't own it..we become part of it.
There is a school of thought that puts forth the proposition,,that homosapiens " talent" is actually the result of eating the wild grasses we call wheat. The nutrients in " wheat" actually fed the brain,,,gave it the ability to grow,, evolve,,So, the smarter the monkey became the first thing it does,,is start cultivating this wild grass stuff. Maybe " soul" is nothing more than learning to love the wheat germ?..And of course,,over the stretch of time...we've taken the basic aaa.hhaaaa moment of.." Ogg has a brain and it thinks for him"...to the abstractous..." this is his body'' representaion of the wheat germ in Holy Communion...
...Well, I could go on...but by now,,hopefully you may be getting my example...I believe in brain food,,and it gives me the ability to see things differently..not necessarily original or unique,,but hopefully demonstrative of possibilties that exist for us all......Does that help in your search for understanding?............................................MEL
...so ,,i qualify to help in your endeavor Jel
...Try this on....Your original question,,at what point life begins...is pre judged. Life doesn't begin and end..It simply continues. hold on now..not so fast...I am not saying ,,when the body stops functioning,,the life force leaves this plain of existance and goes to another..How would I know? It could, but I don't know. No, there is another way of seeing Life,,as long as there is a sperm and egg..and cells dividing..life continues. An analogy perhaps...just because a leaf becomes seperated from the twig,,and drys up and falls apart..doesn't mean the tree died. Take a few steps back from the Me, I and or You,,and see the point of survival of the species,,then take it out another million Light years to the perspective of the " Life Force"...is it a characteristic, a development ,of any successful,,natural,,Universe? or does a Life Force exist as a by product of all Universes,,whether they implode after only a billion years or expand into infinite until they literally evaporate?..I mean, life has been around millions of times longer. than Humans have.
..Concerning the soul..how convenient...man invented himself a Soul. Thats one way to see " soul"..
The idea of human acquiring a soul apon some completion of a ritual or another..again may be pre judged..Perhaps "soul" is something etheral that joins us..Its there, waiting for us to come to it. We don't own it..we become part of it.
There is a school of thought that puts forth the proposition,,that homosapiens " talent" is actually the result of eating the wild grasses we call wheat. The nutrients in " wheat" actually fed the brain,,,gave it the ability to grow,, evolve,,So, the smarter the monkey became the first thing it does,,is start cultivating this wild grass stuff. Maybe " soul" is nothing more than learning to love the wheat germ?..And of course,,over the stretch of time...we've taken the basic aaa.hhaaaa moment of.." Ogg has a brain and it thinks for him"...to the abstractous..." this is his body'' representaion of the wheat germ in Holy Communion...
...Well, I could go on...but by now,,hopefully you may be getting my example...I believe in brain food,,and it gives me the ability to see things differently..not necessarily original or unique,,but hopefully demonstrative of possibilties that exist for us all......Does that help in your search for understanding?............................................MEL
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Life may begin at conception, but that is not to say that humanity does. I think that a "soul", (or at least, what I consider to be a soul) is something that we develop as we grow.
As to the question of children, I guess that it all depends on which denomination you agree with, and even within denominations, there will be differences. Some will doubtless believe that by denying your children the "knowledge and experience" of god, you are condemning them. Others will not.
Personally, I'm with Cho at least partly, in that any god who would condemn a child is not a god worthy of worship. (II Kings, c2:v4 anyone?)
I'm of the opinion that you let them make up their own minds. They will become aware of the concept, regardless of what you do, so when it happens, you explain as best you can, something like: "Some people believe X, some believe Y, I don't know which, if any of it, is true, what do you think makes sense?"
Anyway, it's a tough question, and I suppose your own culpability depends on how much you think is true anyway. Certainly I don't think you should teach your children something you don't believe, and bear in mind that they'll choose for themselves eventually anyway.
My two cents.
--A
As to the question of children, I guess that it all depends on which denomination you agree with, and even within denominations, there will be differences. Some will doubtless believe that by denying your children the "knowledge and experience" of god, you are condemning them. Others will not.
Personally, I'm with Cho at least partly, in that any god who would condemn a child is not a god worthy of worship. (II Kings, c2:v4 anyone?)
I'm of the opinion that you let them make up their own minds. They will become aware of the concept, regardless of what you do, so when it happens, you explain as best you can, something like: "Some people believe X, some believe Y, I don't know which, if any of it, is true, what do you think makes sense?"
Anyway, it's a tough question, and I suppose your own culpability depends on how much you think is true anyway. Certainly I don't think you should teach your children something you don't believe, and bear in mind that they'll choose for themselves eventually anyway.
My two cents.
--A
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Fist and Faith
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THANK YOU!!!!! Such a thing shouldn't even need to be said!ChoChiyo wrote:God does not send children to hell.
Period.
In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna says, "There was never a time when I did not exist, nor you... nor will there be any future when we cease to be."ChoChiyo wrote:As far as when life begins, I believe life for us all began near about the time God created everything. It says somewhere in the old testament that God knew our names before we were born. When I read it, I got the distinct impression that it was before we were even conceived.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Fist and Cho - you both have failed to understand the point of the example that I was giving. The "age of accountability" is relative. I used the age of 10 as illustration only, although I will say, as I said before, that when I was 10 years of age I believe that I was accountable for my actions.
I could go further but I would leave the scope of this topic.
I could go further but I would leave the scope of this topic.
So then, would a person of God believe that souls are created at conception, along with life?
And that soul is under God's 'protection' until the age of accountability, whatever age that may be?
But then after that debatable age of accountability, decisions made by the child will either lead to salvation or damnation?
And that soul is under God's 'protection' until the age of accountability, whatever age that may be?
But then after that debatable age of accountability, decisions made by the child will either lead to salvation or damnation?
Again, I can only speak from a Baptist viewpoint as that is the only doctrine that I understand.jelerak wrote:So then, would a person of God believe that souls are created at conception, along with life?
And that soul is under God's 'protection' until the age of accountability, whatever age that may be?
But then after that debatable age of accountability, decisions made by the child will either lead to salvation or damnation?
There is only one decision that a person can make that truly matters, and that is the decision to either accept or reject Christ.
So, expanding on my hypothetical 10 year old (this is the part that I avoided in my previous post, for fear of being flamed) - a 10 year old child, having reached the age of accountability and having knowledge of the offer of salvation, and having rejected that offer, would not go to Heaven.
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ChoChiyo
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We shall see when we die what happens, I guess.
If there are the souls of ten year olds frying in hell, I guess I'll be frying there with them.
I believe that God is so immense that there is no way we can grasp the scope of him. As Paul said, "For now we see through a glass darkly--but then we shall see face to face."
Which of us can hope to comprehend the mind of God--the Bible is our glass--we see through it darkly. And it, though the word of God, is certainly not ALL of the words of God.
The problem that I have with the Baptist church (and I attended for several years and was even baptized there) is that things are too black and white. That and the fact that they preached from the pulpit in the particular church I went to whom I should cast my vote for--which pissed me off--and I quit going there.
I believe that God is not only a million shades of gray but also a million millions of hues and shades and tones of color.
To put him into a box and say "God thinks this" is hubris at best and ignorance at worst.
(DLB--not calling you either--your intellect is amazing and your logic is always stimulating)
The black-and-white religion is too simplistic for a being as vast and incomprehensible as God--and far too easy to twist and abuse by power mad lunatics (like Jerry Falwell and Jimmy Swaggert and others of their ilk).
If God truly is the great spiritual Father of us all--reaching the age of accountability does not doom us to hell if we've made the wrong choices, in my opinion. A Father--especially one that is divine--would certainly have the goal of bringing that wayward child into harmony with himself.
If your child rejects some aspect of your moral code--or even says you are full of crap--will you torture him/her by setting them on fire or beating hell out of them? If you wouldn't--and you are an imperfect human father--why would the divine and perfect GOD sentence his child to an eternity (an ETERNITY!) of torment for not having had the time to weigh all the options and come to the correct answer?
I would submit that someone who died at age ten--even if he /she had reached the "age of accountability" has not had sufficient time--nor sufficient intellectual development--to weigh all of the factors and come to a rational answer.
Therefore, I stick to my guns that children do not go to hell. Regardless if they've reached the ability to comprehend the difference between good and evil and their accountability for their choices or not.
Not if God really is a FATHER. Unless it's true that MY father is the kind of father God is--in which case, I'll take hell, thanks.
If there are the souls of ten year olds frying in hell, I guess I'll be frying there with them.
I believe that God is so immense that there is no way we can grasp the scope of him. As Paul said, "For now we see through a glass darkly--but then we shall see face to face."
Which of us can hope to comprehend the mind of God--the Bible is our glass--we see through it darkly. And it, though the word of God, is certainly not ALL of the words of God.
The problem that I have with the Baptist church (and I attended for several years and was even baptized there) is that things are too black and white. That and the fact that they preached from the pulpit in the particular church I went to whom I should cast my vote for--which pissed me off--and I quit going there.
I believe that God is not only a million shades of gray but also a million millions of hues and shades and tones of color.
To put him into a box and say "God thinks this" is hubris at best and ignorance at worst.
(DLB--not calling you either--your intellect is amazing and your logic is always stimulating)
The black-and-white religion is too simplistic for a being as vast and incomprehensible as God--and far too easy to twist and abuse by power mad lunatics (like Jerry Falwell and Jimmy Swaggert and others of their ilk).
If God truly is the great spiritual Father of us all--reaching the age of accountability does not doom us to hell if we've made the wrong choices, in my opinion. A Father--especially one that is divine--would certainly have the goal of bringing that wayward child into harmony with himself.
If your child rejects some aspect of your moral code--or even says you are full of crap--will you torture him/her by setting them on fire or beating hell out of them? If you wouldn't--and you are an imperfect human father--why would the divine and perfect GOD sentence his child to an eternity (an ETERNITY!) of torment for not having had the time to weigh all the options and come to the correct answer?
I would submit that someone who died at age ten--even if he /she had reached the "age of accountability" has not had sufficient time--nor sufficient intellectual development--to weigh all of the factors and come to a rational answer.
Therefore, I stick to my guns that children do not go to hell. Regardless if they've reached the ability to comprehend the difference between good and evil and their accountability for their choices or not.
Not if God really is a FATHER. Unless it's true that MY father is the kind of father God is--in which case, I'll take hell, thanks.
Empress Cho hammers the KABC of Evil.
"If Ignorance is Bliss, Ann Coulter must be the happiest woman in the universe!"
Take that, you Varlet!