Anyone else hate the whole "Worm" concept?

[ur-bane]

I am in agreement as well. It does give depth to the characters, and shows cultural diversity within the tale.
Look, most religions have their own versions of creation that are different from other religions. That doesn't make one right or another wrong. Those stories are meant to express an idea of the power of the creator. They are not meant to be a literal expression of what actually happened.
Think of Creation stories as if they were written by Aesop: the tale is interesting, but it is just a vehicle used to transport us to the moral.

[Thaale]

And yet, that relativism is the cornerstone of all the books. The different races and species have entirely different names for Foul because they have entirely different outlooks on life and reality. The New Lords couldn't use Kevin's Lore because they had a fundamentally different attitude than the Old Lords. SRD gave each of the Ravers opposing names - one for how they view themselves, and one for how others view them.

This isn't a sematic argument. No one's quibbling about the differences between Worm / Würd / Weird. The point is that there's apparently no place in the Worm story for the guy Covenant kept running into in the First Chronicles, and whom Linden met in TWL.

Runes

Spoiler

Esmer is caught between violently different ways of life.

Take away the relativism, and there is no TCTC.

Internally conflicted characters are nothing new to SRD and that's not what anyone finds grating.

Spoiler

Instead it's as if we opened up Fatal Revenant and found that now Esmer isn't conflicted and is instead acting exactly like Liand - and worse yet, that the author is acting as if that's how Esmer had always been.

It's the internal inconsistency people object to.

The whole Worm story smacks of revisionism and prequelitis. I think that if SRD had intended to drag the Worm in from the beginning, he never would have been so definite about the conversations TC thought he was having with the old man, about Tamarantha and Mhoram's Creator stories, about the story of the Arch and the Enemy and white gold.

He would have left the door open in the first four books for a different but equal creation story. But I don't think the Worm was ever planned for; it was a jury-rigged hasty addition, and that shows.

[Fist and Faith]

I understand what you're saying. Yes, the creation stories are relativism of a different sort, since they lead to this problem. I'm just saying that it's another example of the way different groups in TCTC see things differently.

And I still have faith that SRD can pull this off. But you're absolutely right, the Worm was never planned for when the First Chrons was written. SRD says the 1st was originally intended to be the end of the story. He decided to continue after his editor said, "Hey, you know what would be a great sequel? You should blah blah blah." And SRD said, "That's a horrible idea! But you know what would be a good sequel?"

However, that doesn't mean the Worm was not a carefully considered part of the story. Surely, SRD did not somehow forget the Creator, or the story Tamarantha told in LFB. How bad an author would he have to be to do that? In fact, we know he didn't forget, because Linden saw the old man in TWL, and is thinking about him in Runes. Again, I'm betting that patience will be rewarded.

[Furls Fire]

Have faith everyone...SRD will NOT disappoint. This story has been 20 years in the making. We will have all our answers. Some we may not like, and some will completely shock us. But, we will get them.

[kevinswatch]

Yeah, sort of what someone already said here before with the gun analogy. I don't think SRD would have repeatedly brought up the old man in Runes unless he had something in mind to use later. We still have three more books to go (or for some of us, 3 and 2/3rds, heh). Have faith. Heh.-jay

[High Lord Tolkien]

Opps.!
Hey, I honestly didn't see the "Worm of the World's End" thread before posting this one.
It was just a question I've had in my head for years.

Now I have to read that one!

[wayfriend]

Opps.!
Hey, I honestly didn't see the "Worm of the World's End" thread before posting this one.
It was just a question I've had in my head for years.

Now I have to read that one!

Also check out the thread called WOW II - great-granddaddy of all spoilers for more on the old man in Runes - if you want Runes Spoilers.

[matrixman]

Have faith everyone...SRD will NOT disappoint. This story has been 20 years in the making. We will have all our answers. Some we may not like, and some will completely shock us. But, we will get them.

Well said, Furls.

Last year I worried in a post that people would already be making up their minds about how they thought the Last Chrons should end, and thus would be disappointed when SRD's resolution to his story didn't jive with their ideas. On the other hand, people like Furls (and I) have faith in SRD's ability to resolve his story competently, even if specific matters like the Worm may never be resolved to the satisfaction of folks who may want an almost scientifically rigorous and precise answer.

[[Syl]]

I just don't get why a blurring of the lines between myth and reality would bother fantasy readers. I can understand, maybe, problems with internal consistency, but anyone who thinks Donaldson doesn't worry about it is reading with one hemisphere of their brain tied behind their back (and ignoring the entire GI).

Dunno, normally fantasy requires a large amount of suspension of disbelief (unbelief?), but SRD seems to demand faith as well. Faith that no matter how screwed things look, they will be resolved. He's yet to disappoint me.

[CovenantJr]

Watch the Runes revelations. Jay hasn't finished it yet

[kevinswatch]

Yeah, some of us are "special" readers.-jay

[matrixman]

Dunno, normally fantasy requires a large amount of suspension of disbelief (unbelief?), but SRD seems to demand faith as well. Faith that no matter how screwed things look, they will be resolved. He's yet to disappoint me.

Hey, I'll take the flaming for "demanding" faith from SRD readers or for being protective of SRD. He isn't demanding anything.

[[Syl]]

Well, not Donaldson himself, but his works. If you don't have faith, you quit. Unless you're a glutton for punishment.

[Warmark]

i have been wondering about how SRD said in the GI that the one tree would not have always been where it was in the one tree. he said that it moves about.

does this not kinda ruin Covenants deduction of where berek found the tree ( ie east ) because it might have moved

[Thaale]

i have been wondering about how SRD said in the GI that the one tree would not have always been where it was in the one tree. he said that it moves about.

does this not kinda ruin Covenants deduction of where berek found the tree ( ie east ) because it might have moved

Covenant didn’t “deduce” the Tree’s location; Caer Caveral implanted the knowledge in his mind and the elohim unlocked the map for him. The source of Caer Caveral’s knowledge is not revealed, but it was probably not simply information handed down from Berek’s time. As a Forestal, Caer Caveral is attuned to the Earth. Whatever his way of knowing the current location of the Tree, there was no reason for TC to doubt it or him.

[Warmark]

i seem to remeber covenant choosing which way to go,

and he said that berek could not have found the tree in the west without meeting the haruchai .

that it could not be north as it was too cold.

i forget the reason for south so he decided to head east.

[Thaale]

True. That was after he left Revelstone but before he encountered the Giants. But he didn't find the Tree with just the general notion of Berek must have gone east - he found it by following Troy's map. And note that Covenant's reasoning is still valid even if the Tree has moved - aast is clearly the way to depart The Land for points elsewhere, so unless the Tree is nearby, that's the way to go. (Of course, at the time he decided to head east, he didn't have a giantship, so maybe it wasn't such a smart plan after all. Without that fortuitous encounter with the Giants in the Sarangrave, I can just see Linden and Sunder and Brinn staring at Covenant in a mix of annoyance and amusement and saying, "Okay - Now what? Swim?" at Coercri as everyone looks at the ocean).

What was the gist of what SRD said in the GI? Even if the One Tree moves, it's possible that in "only" 7,000 years between Berek and The Second Chronicles, it would be in the same place.

[drew]

Although maybe Covenant was wrong, maybe the Tree was in the south when Berek Foundit, or the West...acctually the West sounds plausable since Berek did appoint a Haruchai to guard it!

[Avatar]

I'm sure that in here somewhere is a thread in which we debate whether it was actually a haruchai who was set as its guardian originally, since IIRC, the general consensus was that Berek didn't know the haruchai at all.

--A

[drew]

Makes you wonder huh?