100's at Mo. Confederate Ceremony

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:) Lord Mhoram,
As I argued in the other thread, if slavery had been the most important issue, the Confederacy had the option to keep their slaves, on the condition that they agreed not to secede. Anyway, enough of that. We've gone round this often enough. ;)
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Post by Dragonlily »

The rallying cry of the Southern states was "States Rights!" The right of each state to make its own decisions with no Federal oversight had been a simmering issue in the south ever since the US first formed a nation together. That union had been partially forced by the need for all the colonies to stand together or Britain would conquer them separately.

(Maybe this was covered earlier in the thread, I haven't read it all. I had an excellent college teacher for American Colonial, and I feel her course reviving in me now and then.)
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Thanks for the post DragonLily. It hadn't been covered, and adds to the support of my own viewpoint. ;)

If you'd like to see all the myriad of things we did cover in this debate, check out the "Slavery vs Seccession: The American Civil War" thread. (Think we made like 20 pages on it. ;) )

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But the state rights were more important to them than the slaves were. They weren't willing to compromise those rights simply in return for being able to keep the slaves.

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Post by Avatar »

So you're saying that the north was fully integrated before the success of the civil rights movement?

Not to mention the ever-present danger of generalisation. The "south" didn't think anything. The "south" was a fairly arbitrary geographical division. While I certainly agree that it showed the way that some people who lived there felt, I have no doubt that some people who live(d) in the "north" felt, and even feel, the same way.

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Post by Dragonlily »

Slavery became a "cause celebre" of the States Rights movement, the most visible example of interference from the Federal government. The Federal government of that time saw it as one of its duties that it protect the people from the states, who might pass any law harmful to the underprivileged among their citizenry. The Southern states, ruled by new aristocracies, were considered to be especially prone to this. So for the North, slavery also became a cause celebre, the greatest possible need for protection of underprivileged humans.
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Post by Sheriff Lytton »

Avatar wrote:...(Oh Sheriff, before I forget, anything in the realm of human experience, imagination, and thought is considered topical in here. ;) )
In that case I think I'll start up that thread on the opposable thumb and flint tools I've been toying with.
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Post by Lord Mhoram »

"Had there been no slavery, there would have been no war. Had there been no moral condemnation of slavery, there would have been no war." - Sydney E. Ahlstrome

The 18th-century Southern economy was not based on states' rights. Neither was their society. The majority of Southern men would have told you they would like very much to own slaves, but only the most elite did. The Southern economy was based on slavery.
Although the majority of Southerners had little interest in slaves, slavery was a primary interest of Southern politicians--and consequently the underlying cause of the South's desire to seek independence and state rights.
members.tripod.com/~greatamericanhistory/gr02013.htm
Although this site also says:
So-was the war about slavery? Absolutely. If there had been no disagreement over the issue of slavery, the South would probably not have discerned a threat to its culture and the southern politicians would have been much less likely to seek "their right to secede." But was it only about slavery? No. It was also about the constitutional argument over whether or not a state had a right to leave the Union, and--of primary concern to most southern soldiers--the continuation of antebellum southern culture.
So as I said: the war was primarily about slavery.

In effect, any Confederate soldier was: yes, defending his homeland, but also essentially defending slavery.
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Post by Cail »

So are you saying that by definition, any given soldier is fighting for whatever their government believes? I have plenty of vet friends who would passionately disagree with you on that point.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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Post by Lord Mhoram »

Cail,
So are you saying that by definition, any given soldier is fighting for whatever their government believes?
Well by fighting for their government, are they not in effect defending the ideals, or lack thereof, of their government?
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Post by Cail »

In a way, yes, but that does not mean it's a blanket endorsement of policy. Do you think everyone in Vietnam was on board with MacNamara's program?
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by Plissken »

Soldiers take a vow to give up their right to choose which military policies to support, so that the citizenry be protected.

In return, it is the duty of the citizenry to ensure that that vow is spent by the leadership under only the most honorable circumstances.
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Post by Lord Mhoram »

Cail,

Certainly not (though that wasn't a great example, since Vietnam was a particularly controversial war) but Vietnam soldiers were in effect defending the U.S.'s presence in that country.
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Post by Cail »

Absolutely true, but they were not defending the stated policy per se. One could probably make the same claim in Iraq, and (from what I've seen and read) definately make the same claim about the soldiers from the CSA, since most of the country didn't own slaves.

And to go back to an earlier point that Av and I made, even though slavery was abolished post-war, blacks were still not treated as humans, much less as equals in either the North or the South until much, much later.
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by Lord Mhoram »

Cail,
Absolutely true, but they were not defending the stated policy per se.
Okay that's true, I must agree.
And to go back to an earlier point that Av and I made, even though slavery was abolished post-war, blacks were still not treated as humans, much less as equals in either the North or the South until much, much later.
Well yes, but how does that effect this argument in any way?
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Post by Cail »

You seem to believe that the entire South supported slavery, and that State's Rights just became a rallying cry, while the noble North championed the cause of human rights for all. That's simply not accurate. Before there was a CSA, there was slavery all over the U.S., and it was supported and endorsed by the U.S. government. After the war, blacks were segregated (separate but equal) and brutalized and discriminated against all over the U.S. The South has become the scapegoat for all racism, and while there is some basis for that, the fact of the matter is that this whole country was really unfriendly towards blacks until very recently.

What I'm saying (now watch me bring this sucker full circle) is that if I were black, I'd probably be just as pissed off seing the Stars and Stripes as I would be seeing the Stars and Bars.

On a side note, I'm seeing more and more black men displaying the Stars and Bars. Primarily bikers, but there were more than a few wearing it when I lived in Jacksonville.
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by Lord Mhoram »

Cail,

I indicate to you again, as I did in the last Civil War thread, that the more progressive individual Northern states outlawed slavery before the Civil War.
the fact of the matter is that this whole country was really unfriendly towards blacks until very recently.
Certainly, but my point is that it was the Southern Confederacy that fought to the end to preserve slavery for their economy.
What I'm saying (now watch me bring this sucker full circle) is that if I were black, I'd probably be just as pissed off seing the Stars and Stripes as I would be seeing the Stars and Bars.
I guess I can see that point, but the Stars and Bars has become the sheer personification of Southern racism, and if I were black I'd rather see the Stars and Stripes that outlawed slavery than the Stars and Bars that fought to preserve it.
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Post by Cail »

Correct, the Northern states did, and I'm willing to bet that there were people in the North that weren't happy about it either, just as there were people in the South that didn't like slavery.

While I agree with you to a certain extent that the flag was perverted to "personify Southern Racism" (quite frankly, I'd say all racism), there are several legitimate Southern pride (NOT "White Power") organizations who are fighting tooth and nail to change that perception. I think it's grossly unfair to just lump all Southerners into one big, racist group.

'Cause I proudly call myself a Southerner, and I'm not a racist.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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