US 'will have to face military draft'

[ChoChiyo]

So, you'll believe the same people who brought you "WMD definitely exist in Iraq" but not the media?



Selective belief....

It isn't like our government has EVER lied to us before...

[Sheriff Lytton]

Can't be bothered or just can't?
The latter I'm sure!

No, I seriously can't be bothered discussing anything with you anymore. Your impose labels like "liberal" upon anyone who isn't a card carrying member of the GOP and "Anti-American" upon anyone raises the suggestion that there may be anything questionable about US policy/actions, and your jingoism is simply wearying beyond belief.

How come you liberals as always so *selectively* tolerant of other people who don't share your views?

I'm being lectured on tolerance by a man who refers to people as "animals" ?

Please, we don't need comments like that here.

Leave it at the door.-jay

Agreed.

However, whilst it was inappropriate to have said it I still do not regard it as offensive as some of the things HLT has said recently. I've had plenty of interesting debates with people whose views oppose my own on here, but in this case I may as well be trying to speak with Anne Coulter. There is absolutely no point at all in debating anything with someone whose standard response is that anyone who questions what's happening is "Anti-American".

But no matter, you won't be getting any more such comments from me.

Consider them left at the door, along with my inclination to debate the morality of detention and trial without charge, torture and whatever you want with flag wavers who believe anything at all is justified when their country's doing it.

At the risk of doing a Dennis, I no longer have any desire to retain my account with Kevinswatch. Please close it and do whatever you people do with whatever White Gold Dollars and objects I have.

[Alynna Lis Eachann]

I was gonna make a comment about the "wasted space" bit, but Jay and dAN beat me to it.

Avatar's gonna be sad when he gets back. We're not holding down the fort so well.

I know we're all hot under the collar about some of these things, but please read through what you've posted and decide if it's something you'd honestly not be ashamed of saying to someone's face before you hit the "Submit" button. This is a debate forum, not a mud-slinging contest.

[[Syl]]

Calling someone a waste of space, though insulting, is hardly the worst thing that's ever been said around here. The problem here, as I see it, is the Sheriff just didn't circumlocute around it, but when for the heart.

So sure, rightly (and mildly) chastize Sheriff Lytton, but realize it's more of a problem with the general tone of some of these discussions, not a particular statement that needs to be addressed.

[dANdeLION]

So, you'll believe the same people who brought you "WMD definitely exist in Iraq" but not the media?



Selective belief....

It isn't like our government has EVER lied to us before...

Selective belief? When have I ever said I believe what the government says? I believe I never had, while you obviously believe I have. Selective belief, indeed. Actually, I believe the proper term would be 'prejudice'.

[Lord Mhoram]

dAN,

I know enough not to believe a 'fact' just because the mainstream media tells me to.

Dude open your eyes.

It's not just the "mainsteam media." It's 1) all media, 2) organizations such as Amnesty International, 3) former officers and soldiers from Gitmo et al. and 4) the Afgan government is complaining about detainees in Afghanistan (men like President Karzai). All of these point to problems with the U.S. military prison camps.

And I know enough not to believe a 'fact' just because the Pentagon tells me to.

[lurch]

...Yesterday, ABC News ran a story that said high naval officers were advising pentagon uppity ups that what was going on in these detention camps,,would possibly be considered "illegal" by world court. Their advise was dated 2002 and 2003, i think. Yet it continued. So the question becomes, who is in charge? The military or the Chief. Hey, the Chief keeps saying he has full faith in his top aide, Rumsfield. I wonder what International Law The Chief and or his Top Aide, Rumsfield, are going to quote or refer to when the next American Soldier is killed and stripped and hung from a bridge or overpass?...of course it will be the medias fault for running the pictures.

And today, pentagon analysts admit to being concerned about the slipping popularity of the war, because how it will effect their ability to re-cruit. Well DUH!..........MEL

[Lord Mhoram]

dAN,

Huh looks like you edited your post while I made mine.

Selective belief? When have I ever said I believe what the government says? I believe I never had, while you obviously believe I have. Selective belief, indeed. Actually, I believe the proper term would be 'prejudice'.

Cho and I have every reason to believe that you believe what the government has said concerning this matter, because you have indicated that you do not believe in the criticisms by the media of such matter.

That is not "prejudice."

[Plissken]

How come you liberals as always so *selectively* tolerant of other people who don't share your views?

While I'm not wild about the level of conversation here lately, I am going to play here. That said...

So the guy who dismisses at all Iraqis as "animals," the Guardian and the Indepenent and the Nation as "socialist anti-American extremist publications," and is willing to legitimise poor behavior on the part of American troops and officers with the "everyone else does so much worse" defense, wants to whine about selective tolerance?

You'll excuse me if my pity meter doesn't buzz too loud...

[dANdeLION]

dAN,

Huh looks like you edited your post while I made mine.

Selective belief? When have I ever said I believe what the government says? I believe I never had, while you obviously believe I have. Selective belief, indeed. Actually, I believe the proper term would be 'prejudice'.

Cho and I have every reason to believe that you believe what the government has said concerning this matter, because you have indicated that you do not believe in the criticisms by the media of such matter.

That is not "prejudice."

When you decide what I am and how I think before you even know me, then it is prejudice. If that isn't what Cho was doing, fine. All I'm saying here is there's a tendancy for a few of you to assume I'm some kind of programmed right-winger based on the fact that I'm a conservative. But, I decided for myself who I was for reasons of my own. Bush didn't hypnotize me. My beliefs were honeastly arrived at by me. I find it odd when I see a person like Cho get so (apperantly) upset that I've been 'programmed', and then get more (apparently) upset when I don't succumb to her (apparent) rhetoric, rhetoric that I've heard from my father and grandmother and co-workers, and friends and teachers for years and years and years and years........hmm. It could be that I assume a bit, too. But, I know I'm no lemming, and my first assumption is that few here are, even if some follow the exact path those who I do think of as lemmings do.
Oh, and you shouldn't speak for Cho. It verifies everything I believe about liberals ganging up on conservatives......heh. One other thing; I believe political debate, religious debate, and debate in general is useless until we open our eyes to the possibility that we may be wrong, and also learn to accept the possibility that the other POV may have honestly arrived at their views, and weren't just programmed with them. And trust me, I've been in college, I've watched the news, I've watched the movies; I know how hollywood and our education system wants us to think our government is like.

[Cail]

dAN,

There is a definate bias that some people, both here and in the real world, believe that anyone who identifies themselves as a conservative is a stupid, sheep-like, religious zealot redneck. As HLT pointed out, that runs very contrary to the liberal ideal of acceptance.

If it helps, I don't think you're a lemming.....

[ChoChiyo]

dAN,

Huh looks like you edited your post while I made mine.

Selective belief? When have I ever said I believe what the government says? I believe I never had, while you obviously believe I have. Selective belief, indeed. Actually, I believe the proper term would be 'prejudice'.

Cho and I have every reason to believe that you believe what the government has said concerning this matter, because you have indicated that you do not believe in the criticisms by the media of such matter.

That is not "prejudice."

When you decide what I am and how I think before you even know me, then it is prejudice.

My dear Dan--I haven't decided anything about who you are and how you think. My post was actually meant to be a question...misphrased--and perhaps a bit passionately phrased as I do NOT believe the government...having come of age during the Vietnam "conflict" I learned that the government in deed doesn't give a damn about the average citizen or the soldiers it sends off to die for its nefarious purposes.

I SHOULD have said "So DO you believe" instead of "You'll believe."

I apologize for my bluntness and for hitting buttons that triggered issues for you.

If that isn't what Cho was doing, fine. All I'm saying here is there's a tendancy for a few of you to assume I'm some kind of programmed right-winger based on the fact that I'm a conservative.

No assumption of the kind by me. I was trying to find out what you believe and whether or not you were. Your post sounded like you were saying you believed the government over the media. It appeared that that was implied in your post.

But, I decided for myself who I was for reasons of my own. Bush didn't hypnotize me. My beliefs were honeastly arrived at by me. I find it odd when I see a person like Cho get so (apperantly) upset that I've been 'programmed', and then get more (apparently) upset when I don't succumb to her (apparent) rhetoric, rhetoric that I've heard from my father and grandmother and co-workers, and friends and teachers for years and years and years and years........hmm. It could be that I assume a bit, too.

Indeed you do assume--I don't recall suggesting you were programmed. I was just aghast that you appeared to be willing to swallow the government version and accept NOTHING that the press had to say. (I take what the press says with a grain of salt too--presented with a conflict, I will err on the side of the people--I know how the government proceeds without regard to the people. You may consider this rhetoric, but it is in fact the product of my LIFE EXPERIENCES.

Perhaps my response was unconsciously triggered by the rhetoric I have heard from MY relatives and various others about the demonic, anti-Christian, anti-family values, unpatriotic, unAmerican liberals. (NOTE: I'm not saying YOU have said this. I'm saying I have put up with it for YEARS--one of the reasons that I quit going to church was that I heard it from the pulpit!

So, this may be the root of both of our responses. Perhaps.

But, I know I'm no lemming, and my first assumption is that few here are, even if some follow the exact path those who I do think of as lemmings do.
Oh, and you shouldn't speak for Cho. It verifies everything I believe about liberals ganging up on conservatives......heh.

I think he spoke for me because his feelings were pretty close to identical to mine--which they were. Anyhow, I am responding to this because you seem to imply you wanted me to speak for myself.

One other thing; I believe political debate, religious debate, and debate in general is useless until we open our eyes to the possibility that we may be wrong, and also learn to accept the possibility that the other POV may have honestly arrived at their views, and weren't just programmed with them.

Heh heh--I am perpetually aware of the fact that things I believe may be wrong--but I sift through the facts, listen to all sides (very cautiously--and I have to confess, when I listen to the government--no matter which party is currently seated in the oval office, I assume they have their own agenda which has very little to do with the good of the American people--much less the people of the world. (Once again, LIFE EXPERIENCE). Perhaps it doesn't seem like it to you, but I do listen (or should I say read) very carefully to what others have to say, and I run it through my internal files and compare. If what they have to say is convincing, I will tweak my own assumptions and beliefs.

And trust me, I've been in college, I've watched the news, I've watched the movies; I know how hollywood and our education system wants us to think our government is like.

Perhaps this isn't the right thread to pursue this particular topic--maybe it needs a new one--but I would really be interested in hearing about what you perceive hollywood and the educational system want you to think and how you arrived at that conclusion.

I hope I have enlightened you a bit on my intentions and what I actually think.

I don't know you well enough to presume anything about you. You seem reasonably intelligent and you can construct an understandable post. That's the extent of my database about you personally. I haven't heard enough from you about WHY you believe as you do to be able to decide if you are a lemming or a thoughtful analyzer who acts after considering all sides of the issue. That is what I was trying to find out.

I tend to assume others think for themselves. (Sadly, I've been wrong about THIS in many, many cases.)

So, peace, my dear. I have no ill will towards you, and I hope you have none towards me. If you do, however, that's your problem.

Cho

[dANdeLION]

I don't believe the news precisely because I think it's working for the government. The college professors I had all had a liberal bias; my history professor was the most outgoing about it, but even the art prof had it (not really a surprise here), and a few others too. I really didn't get into politics during English and Math classes. But in history, I got into it heavily with him. I constantly was laughing at him about his views on how wrong America was in every war except the Revolutionary war; and in his mind, even that one wasn't all that necessary; in fact, in his mind, if it weren't for a few power-hungry people stirring up the common folk to rebel, he was sure we could have come to an agreement with King George that would have helped England win whatever war they were at with Europe at the time. But instead out greed forefathers took advantage of the war and made our break for freedom, so they could replace the English as the people who controlled America. Oh, and the Alamos was a set up, too. Our original plan was to take over Mexico. Heh, I humbly submitted to him that if we ever wanted Mexico, we would not have failed in taking it.

As for Hollywood's portrayal of our government; it is basically this. Government is Big Brother, watching our every move. And yet somehow, when the 'hero' decides to buck the system, the power hungry all-knowing, all-seeing, fingers in everybody's pie government cannot stop this single individual, due to what can only be logically termed as a pathological amount of gross incompetence, making most of these types of movies totally unbelievable to me. Then I listen to the Michael Moores, Howard Deans, John Kerrys, Ted Kennedys, and so on and so on, portraying Bush and the conservatives in our government as a power hungry, all-knowing, all-seeing, fingers in everybody's pie institution who through what can only be logically termed as a pathological amount of gross incompetence, foolishly believed Saddam's WMD bluff and actually attacked him, and also through what can only be logically termed as a pathological amount of gross incompetence, cannot seem to find Osama Bin Laden, just like they can't see through the tricks of the 'hero' of any given 'Enemy of the State" type movie, leading me to think that maybe the media and the liberal part of out government side with Osama and Saddam, because they actually view them as heros.

[Lord Mhoram]

Cail,

There is a definate bias that some people, both here and in the real world, believe that anyone who identifies themselves as a conservative is a stupid, sheep-like, religious zealot redneck. As HLT pointed out, that runs very contrary to the liberal ideal of acceptance.

This goes both ways man. People here and in the real world have their own stereotypes of liberals.

dAN,

leading me to think that maybe the media and the liberal part of out government side with Osama and Saddam, because they actually view them as heros.

Are you serious? If you are then I must say this: There is a HUGE difference between (due) criticism of your government and support of the enemy of the country. No liberal Democrat views Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden as "heroes." Far from it. I support the war in Afganistan. I do not support what the war in Iraq stands for, but I support our troops there and the defense of American ideals and the growth of Mid-Eastern democracy.

Cho,

I apologize if I spoke hastily for you. But as you said, I think our feelings are mutual here.

[dANdeLION]

Yeah, I'm serious. I even go as far as to say that in cases like the Newsweek article on burning the Koran is not only stupid, but borders on traitorous. But that's my opinion; I don't expect anybody to agree with me on that.

[Lord Mhoram]

dAN,

Please tell me: How do U.S. Senators Kennedy and Kerry and other liberal Democrats view Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden as heroes? Because they don't support the current Administration?

I don't think you have a basis for that statement and I find it incredibly offensive and even ignorant.

[ChoChiyo]

Yeah, I'm serious. I even go as far as to say that in cases like the Newsweek article on burning the Koran is not only stupid, but borders on traitorous. But that's my opinion; I don't expect anybody to agree with me on that.

This is a point of profound disagreement with me--I see the abuse of prisoners as a very important thing--flushing the Koran is a part of that abuse.

It is the media's DUTY to bring it to light--how will the people know, and therefore demand it to stop, if the abuse is hidden, buried, covered up??

The truth is that the people who abused the Koran are responsible for the outbreak of violence. Not the magazine which did its duty by reporting it.

The officials that did not take immediate action at the FIRST report of prisoner abuse--and thereby allowed it to continue and intensify--are as culpable for the abuse as the personnel who did the abusing.

imo

Oh, and I also disagree that any liberal perceives Osama bin Laden and/or Suddam Hussein as "heroes." Attempting to understand one's enemy does not mean one approves of his/her actions.

In fact, regarding Osama bin Laden--if memory serves--was trained by OUR OWN CIA while Reagan (the conservative poster boy that some people want to see on Mt. Rushmore) was at the helm of the country.

Which is a good reason to keep the old adage "Don't spit into the wind" in mind.

In fact, in the 1980's our government also considered Saddam a valueable ally. In fact, we thought so much of him that we provided him with intelligence reports, sold him cluster bombs, and sold him chemicals that he used to gas the Kurdish people. Once again WE OURSELVES (thinking selfishly of our own agendas) enabled a bad man to gain an incredible amount of power.


I read somewhere that Reagan and Bush senior authorized selling anthrax and bubonic plague viruses to Saddam.

EDIT: Found it: Washington Post www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A5224 ... ge=printer

Quite an interesting article.

[dANdeLION]

We flush the Koran, they behead us. WHich one do you think I believe is abuse?

[ChoChiyo]

We flush the Koran, they behead us. WHich one do you think I believe is abuse?

Two wrongs do not make a right.

If we want to be considered better than them, we have to BE better than them.

Besides which the flushing of the Koran is just ONE bit of abuse.

Given the choice between a nasty, dull axe beheading and two years of hideous abusive torture, being chained by my wrists for days at a time, dangling from the ceiling, being beaten until my knees would no longer bend, and seeing something I considered sacred descerated...and apparently no end of it in sight...which do you think *I* would choose?

I do not condone, approve of, or understand what they are doing. All I know is that my doing bad things doesn't make it better. It makes it worse. Much worse.

[High Lord Tolkien]

So the guy who dismisses at all Iraqis as "animals," and is willing to legitimise poor behavior on the part of American troops and officers with the "everyone else does so much worse" defense, wants to whine about selective tolerance?

sigh

I never said "all Iraqis" are animals I said that terrorist are animals.

I ?think? that you are saying that I support bad behavior by American troops because the terrorists are doing worse ie: my head chopping off comment.
Not true.
I just don't want to know and understand the motivations of those who cut off American's and other peoples heads with knives.
I just want them dead.
If that's selective tolerance then, yeah, you got me Plissken.