So what's holding up the arch? (poss spoiler)

[finn]

With the appearance of TC at the end of Runes I wondered, if he's at the gates of Revelstone, who or what is acting as the keystone of the Arch of Time?

Something must be or the game's over and Foul's out.

Gives some creedence to those who proposed the theory of "aspects" of TC.

[NightBlaze]

Hi Finn,
I thought about the same thing. The arch however isnt a "physical" existance, rather, a different dimension. I cant claim to be an expert of any kind, but kind of like we cannot see moments pass by. So, TC taking up being the arch was a different reality than being a physical existance.
Gawd, I hope that makes sense.

[High Lord Tolkien]

TC is the Wildmagic not the Arch itself.

[Edge]

Hi Finn,
I thought about the same thing. The arch however isnt a "physical" existance, rather, a different dimension. I cant claim to be an expert of any kind, but kind of like we cannot see moments pass by. So, TC taking up being the arch was a different reality than being a physical existance.
Gawd, I hope that makes sense.

Makes sense to me.

It's a metaphysical, rather than a physical, position.

[dlbpharmd]

TC is the Wildmagic not the Arch itself.

Wild magic is the keystone of the AoT, so in a sense Covenant is the AoT also.

[finn]

Good points guys, but if that's the case surely killing TC would break the arch or at least remove the keystone (which should amount to the same thing). However TC shuttled off the mortal coil to become the keystone, as such he has left the "earthly" plane and became a new entity.

I guess what I'm thinking is that there is a paradox here (doesn't SRD just LOVE those), that If TC is the Wild Magic and has become a sort of pure wild magic keystone that holds the arch in place, how can he be riding towards Revelstone. Is he omnipotent, has he become a God? If he has been somehow resurrected what has happened to the pure wild magic entity that holds the arch together?

Perhaps the rider is a "shade" of TC, has the form but not the power, maybe a messenger.

How about he has become Elohim? Could TC now be the "Findail" of the last Chronicles? Is his role as the keystone of the arch essentially THAT different from that of the Colossus?

It brings me back to the threads concerning the Land having its own Pantheon of Gods, powers greater than those of the living. In Greek myths "heroes" came along once in a while who were big enough to challenge or stand with, the Gods: Hercules, Perseus, Achilles. Some became Gods....TC armed with Wild Magic could be the big Hero who finds a place amongst the Gods.

[High Lord Tolkien]

TC is the Wildmagic not the Arch itself.

Wild magic is the keystone of the AoT, so in a sense Covenant is the AoT also.

In a sense true.
But the Arch is just "founded" on WM so there more to the Arch than that.
I always look at the Arch in a physical way.
Wild Magic is like the silica that strengthens concrete.
If you look at a stone wall you can't see the silica but it's holding everything together. (or something like that, I'm not a mason or anything )
There's more to the Arch than just Wild Magic, imho.

[Creator]

Spoiler

While he's resurrected

- white gold Duct Tape!!

[wayfriend]

I've always viewed the Arch of Time as a mythological description for the Creator's Laws, which create order out of chaos, and allow the Earth to be. (Fantasy physics, if you will.) So it is not a literal object.

Nevertheless, Covenant's spirit has become irrevocably intertwined with the fundamental order. Like the Staff to the Law, he has become a pillar of the Earth's existance.

What worries me is that, to date, this has never been good ...

[finn]

A keystone in an arch is the piece that when placed, locks the constituent parts of the arch together. Once the arch is completed it is very strong and will take a great deal of weight.

TC is the keystone, if removed logically the arch will fall apart.....end game.

TC is also dead, but curiously still in existence as some sort of "entity". He is able to contact Linden albeit through dreams, other people (benign possession?), etc. What is riding towards Revelstone?

I ask 'what' rather than 'who'; despite the laws of life and death being broken, unless TC has become omnipotent or omniprescent (or whatever), he cannot be other than the keystone of the arch, unless of course its written into the next book as "Fantasy Physics" (nice one Wayfriend), that he can be the keystone without having to have his entity, 'in situ' so to speak. Of course this could risk the entity and thus the arch.

Now the Demondim also possess a power which could in fact "raise" TC as a shade and possibly control him.

If his core self is contained within the "entity" then any attempt to Raise him by friend or foe will presumeably only raise the body not the spirit. At best it may produce a flawed copy and one that might be malleable enough to control or compel. Those who have seen the spoiler sample of the next book may see something here.

Someone posted something about TC being broken onto aspects much like a prism with white light (in the Mahdoubt thread I think). I had considered that the Arch idea may have come from Norse mythology's Rainbow Arch between worlds, after all SRD has borrowed fom other Mythologies and Religeons.

However come what may I have yet to see a coherent theory about how our hero can be in two places at the same time.

[The Somberlain]

But didn't the Demondim-raised dead end up deformed in various ways? Or is that just my hazy recollection.

However, if that theory's correct, assuming there wasn't some sort of magic still at work on TC's body... it's been lying around decomposing for four thousand years. It seems unlikely that a raised-body would be able to be mistaken for the alive and breathing TC, even at a distance.

That said, I think it would almost seem like a cop-out if TC had just been magically resurrected by... well, whatever. 'Necessity' (i.e. the Land's need, or something), White Gold... I don't know. I don't think SRD would do that. Besides, he only just told Avery that "The Law binds me in so many ways". Assuming he didn't find some loophole between then and the end, the person riding to Revelstone can't just be TC like he used to be.

So I think the most likely explanation is that "aspects" one. We know that TC has some god-like powers; talking to Linden in her dreams, possession (although this has always been described as a shocking violation of everything right and natural... so is he doing it because he has no choice? Or has he been Corrupted in some way?). So perhaps he's been able to create some sort of avatar.
One more point - I can't find the exact quote, but Covenant does tell her, "remember that I'm dead". Did he know that this TC-lookalike was on its way? Is that a warning?

[ur-bane]

One more point - I can't find the exact quote, but Covenant does tell her, "remember that I'm dead". Did he know that this TC-lookalike was on its way? Is that a warning?

My thoughts exactly. There is no way, with what we know, that we can trust this TC. Perhaps we are seeing shades of how Foul got Kevin Landwaster to trust him and make him a Lord in the Council?
Are we being set up for betrayal? Perhaps. But I think it most likely that there will be a twist to this TC that we won't see coming.

I am reminded of Stephen King's Misery. Paul has to rewrite the Misery Returns book. Kathy Bates (I forget the character name ) tells him:

Misery was dead at the end, Paul. You'll have to start there.

Something that we, too, must keep in mind.

One other thought--let us also not forget that Earthpower is a wondrous gift. It has more than once restored Foul, so why not Covenant? (Cop-out? Cheap? )

[Avatar]

However come what may I have yet to see a coherent theory about how our hero can be in two places at the same time.

Yet in the 1st & 2nd Chrons, he is clearly both present in the Land and in the "real" world.

(Don't know where I'm going with this. Observation more than anything else.)

--A

[Prover of Life]

I never got the impression TC became the Arch. WGW says that he placed himself between the Arch and Foul. Foul couldn't hit the Arch with wild magic because Covenant was in the way.

[wayfriend]

I never got the impression TC became the Arch. WGW says that he placed himself between the Arch and Foul. Foul couldn't hit the Arch with wild magic because Covenant was in the way.

But nothing's that simple anymore. The wild magic has been fused into me. I am wild magic. In a sense, I've become the keystone of the Arch. Or I will be — if I let what I am loose. If I ever try to use power.

TC is not the Arch. He's just the keystone of the Arch. Actually, he's just the keystone of the Arch in a sense. Or, at least, that's how he perceives himself.

Clear and simple, right?

I can't help but making the analogy that Covenant is to the Arch what the Staff of Law is to the Law.

Now. The Staff of Law was created as a means to wield the energy of Earthpower safely -- i.e. without violating the various constraints of Law. But because this is magic rather than technology (because it deals in symbolic unities rather than in discrete mechanisms), the Staff cannot be inherently separate from the forces and rules which it exerts. It's not a light switch, essentially distinct from the flow of electricity which it enables. In a certain sense, the Staff *is* both Law and Earthpower, just as white gold *is* wild magic. In fantasy, in magic, the tool cannot be distinguished from what the tool does.

So. Even though the Staff was never essential to the original existence of either Law or Earthpower, the simple fact of its creation means that it participates in both, and can therefore: a) strengthen both, or b) weaken both (by being destroyed). So yes, the destruction of the original Staff weakened the structure of Law.

Covenant seems to be in a similar position: he has become inherently unseperate from the forces he exerts ("You are the white gold.").

Now I am left to ponder if this means that the Arch would be weakened (or destroyed) if Covenant was destroyed.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I can't help but making the analogy that Covenant is to the Arch what the Staff of Law is to the Law.

Covenant seems to be in a similar position: he has become inherently unseperate from the forces he exerts ("You are the white gold.").

Now I am left to ponder if this means that the Arch would be weakened (or destroyed) if Covenant was destroyed.

hhmmmmmmmmm.................
Nice.

[Edge]

However come what may I have yet to see a coherent theory about how our hero can be in two places at the same time.

One's a physical position; the other's a metaphysical position.

All clear now? Good. Moving on...

[caamora]

Wow! These are great thoughts, people.

TC IS the white gold, (meaning wild magic - the one who could break the AOT) as mhoram said.

I always got the impression that wild magic was the only thing that could break the AOT and because of that, it is the keystone. It is not the keystone in and of itself. The keystone is incidental. The main point was that wild magic could destroy the AOT. I never thought of it being one and the same.

So, yeah, what Wayfriend said....

[wayfriend]

But nothing's that simple anymore. The wild magic has been fused into me. I am wild magic. In a sense, I've become the keystone of the Arch. Or I will be — if I let what I am loose. If I ever try to use power.

Now that I am looking at this again, I catch myself on the words 'or I will be'.

'If I ever try to use power.'

Now I look again at Donaldson's words:

because this is magic rather than technology (because it deals in symbolic unities rather than in discrete mechanisms), the Staff cannot be inherently separate from the forces and rules which it exerts.

The Staff unified with the Law and Earthpower because it exerted that power. And Covenant will be unified with the keystone if he exerts that power.

The parallelism here is making more and more sense to me.

The question now, is: in the 3,500 years since, has this unification occurred? Or, maybe, just maybe ... it's about to. Bwa ha ha ha HA.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Wow! These are great thoughts, people.

TC IS the white gold, (meaning wild magic - the one who could break the AOT) as mhoram said.

I always got the impression that wild magic was the only thing that could break the AOT and because of that, it is the keystone. It is not the keystone in and of itself. The keystone is incidental. The main point was that wild magic could destroy the AOT. I never thought of it being one and the same.

So, yeah, what Wayfriend said....

IN the WGW we learn that TC can/could break the Arch by using *TOO MUCH* Wild Magic.

What does that mean?
Findail said "The Arch is founded on WM and WM can turn it to rubble" (or something to that effect)
So Wild Magic is something BEYOND the Arch.
Something, a power, from the Creator's universe?
Weird.

I still think the "Dream" theory is the only thing that makes sense.