Hile Troy: what he could have imported from our world...

[ur-vile loremaster]

>At the Manchester Q&A SRD said that the people of the Land don't have technology as we know it because they have magic and therefore don't need it.

They don't need technology, eh? If you'd asked Mhoram if he needed any technology-based assistance at the start of PtP -- when the Raver's army is throwing acid at the walls of Revelstone and Revelwood has been destroyed -- I think he would have said yes please!

[Nav]

Well if you contrived to be summoned whilst driving an M4 Abrams battle tank then that's all well and good. If Mhoram could have anything to help him though, I'm pretty sure he'd want to understand a few more of Kevin's Wards.

[Alberich]

I am in love with SRD's ideas about fantasy - that a fantasy landscape is a reflection of character - so I also prefer to see Hile Troy as in some way an aspect of Covenant, rather than someone summoned to the Land by mistake. In fact I prefer to think of the Land as inside Covenant's head - though of course the point SRD tried to make was that it didn't actually matter in the end.

If you make this assumption, it also conveniently explains every oversight, error, anachronism and logic hole in the books - they aren't SRD's, they're Covenant's.

[Lord Defile]

Are you saying that Linden didn't actually go to the Land? If it was only in TC's head how did she possibly have memories of the occurences there? If it's all in TC's head then there are plenty of logic holes that are on a scale far beyond Covenant.

As an after thought, might I point out that before going to the Land They both saw Lord Foul in the fire? How about the Posession of Joan? All of this happened outside of the Land and Outside of Covenant's head. Based on this I think it's beyond any doubt that the land is real.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Are you saying that Linden didn't actually go to the Land? If it was only in TC's head how did she possibly have memories of the occurences there? If it's all in TC's head then there are plenty of logic holes that are on a scale far beyond Covenant.

As an after thought, might I point out that before going to the Land They both saw Lord Foul in the fire? How about the Posession of Joan? All of this happened outside of the Land and Outside of Covenant's head. Based on this I think it's beyond any doubt that the land is real.

Your missing it.
If the whole "Land experience" is actually something TC made up, a dream if you will, then there's no telling when it started or even if it ever stopped.
A dream with in a dream?
LOL, maybe.
If so everything "Linden" knows was created in TC's mind and is a reflection of some aspect of himself.
Everything we think we know could be totally wrong or skewed.

It's an idea that I also subscribe to about this story.
I actually find it more interesting than the "Land is real" thoery.
But that changes from time to time too.

[Alberich]

Are you saying that Linden didn't actually go to the Land? If it was only in TC's head how did she possibly have memories of the occurences there? If it's all in TC's head then there are plenty of logic holes that are on a scale far beyond Covenant.

As an after thought, might I point out that before going to the Land They both saw Lord Foul in the fire? How about the Posession of Joan? All of this happened outside of the Land and Outside of Covenant's head. Based on this I think it's beyond any doubt that the land is real.

No, I agree - I think it does become difficult with the Second Chronicles. But within the context of the First Chronicles, I think the idea that the Land is Covenant's delusion can still make sense.

If I were willing to push things a bit, I could even argue that the Second Chronicles represent Linden's delusion - though I wouldn't. I think with the Second, SRD abandons his attempts to keep the Land both real and imagined at once - part of the reason why I don't like the Second as much as the First.

[Lord Defile]

If it was a dream within a dream, how did Dr. Berenford find Linden in the clearing after Covenant was dead?

[Nav]

Who's to say that Covenant didn't just die in the clearing and then Linden imagined the whole thing while she was unconscious? It seems unlikely that her delusion would be in the same setting as Covenant's, but it isn't impossible.

However, I agree that the longer the Chronicles go on, the more likely it seems that the Land is indeed 'other worldly'. You've also got to factor in Joan's plight and the actions of the cult in the second chrons, all suggesting that Lord Foul is, in some sense, real.

[ur-bane]

>At the Manchester Q&A SRD said that the people of the Land don't have technology as we know it because they have magic and therefore don't need it.

They don't need technology, eh? If you'd asked Mhoram if he needed any technology-based assistance at the start of PtP -- when the Raver's army is throwing acid at the walls of Revelstone and Revelwood has been destroyed -- I think he would have said yes please!

Today's GI Posting

I think this will shed some light onto the "technology" aspect. First and foremost, SRD has written a fantasy. "Technology" in the Land is magic.

Pay particular attention to the example of the Giants.

[High Lord Tolkien]

If it was a dream within a dream, how did Dr. Berenford find Linden in the clearing after Covenant was dead?

You keep thinking that the dream actually ended at the end of any book.
Maybe not.
Maybe TC dreamed that he died and was found by the Dr. Berenford character that he made up.

Remember, I have nothing to base this on other than my own idea.
But SRD has said that he left it open ended whether the Land was in fact a dream or not.

If the Land is a dream and both Foul and the Creator are just different aspects of TC then anything is possible.

[lomillialor]

Maybe Linden is the one dreaming it all up, and TC is someone from her imagination? That might explain her realistic cussing (TC cussed in a more literary way). Maybe TC was her escape into the land, an assumed identity to keep the dream/fantasy at arm's length, and later, as she started accepting the Land as reality, she allowed her own self to project into the land instead of as a fantasy identity. That might also explain the statement TC made to her "You are the Wild Magic".

Just a theory!

[Lord Defile]

Tell me, please, how that explains the simple fact that, with the exception of TC's Elohim-silence in TOT and a few other scattered incidents, the entire story line is from TC's point of view.

[Warmark]

Tell me, please, how that explains the simple fact that, with the exception of TC's Elohim-silence in TOT and a few other scattered incidents, the entire story line is from TC's point of view.

Because Linden is boring!

[lomillialor]

Tell me, please, how that explains the simple fact that, with the exception of TC's Elohim-silence in TOT and a few other scattered incidents, the entire story line is from TC's point of view.

Well, it was just a thought. Not one I am seriously inclined to accept myself.

But....

Linden's POV has been steadily increasing, and was rather too dominant (IMHO) ever since she appeared on the scene in book 4.

RoTE of course was primarily Linden's POV.

Also, it was interesting that once Linden started getting on her feet in the Land, that TC is always finding ways of becoming silent or dead, and that even in TC's silence Linden can enter TC's mind and thoughts.

I'm not saying that Linden is the dreamer and TC is the dream character, but this is fiction, and it is open for interpretation in this way--especially since SRD has not stepped in to clarify his intentions.

OTOH, Linden was not mentioned at all in the first trilogy. And in book 4 and beyond she and TC cohabit the real world together, so that implies if she is dreaming, then the real world and the events and people therein, as described by TC and Linden in all books must therefore also be part of the dream. This would imply Linden has a real life of which we know nothing about, and that TC and Haven Farm and the robed man are all parts of the dream, and that the Land is a dream within a dream. So, this is why I prefer to believe that TC and Linden are to be considered real persons that cohabit the same real world together and that the Land is, well, whatever you want it to be.

[ur-bane]

If you want to view Covenant as Linden's dream, there are a few things that can support this claim. They are revealed to us in the Second Chronicles. First and foremost, we know that Linden needs to be needed. Knowing that TC needed Linden in the SC, it is perfectly reasonable to deduce that she made him up out of her own need to be needed.
But how does this explain the entire First Chronicles? In itself, it doesn't. But let's look at what we know of Linden through her revelations to TC.

She was an abused child. She was mentally tormented by both her father and mother. She witnessed her father's suicide, not by choice, but by compulsion. She was unable to stop him. From that point on, her "need" arises; her need to make a difference, to eliminate the need for "if I only did this," or "I should have done that."

Those wouldas, shouldas, couldas exist for her in the real world. They do not in the Land. She has manufactured a place in her mind where she can make a difference. Where she is needed.
She invented TC out of need, but at the same time, out of an original fear of failing even in her own creation. She invented someone to be her hero, from whom she could take essence and strength. She invented the time of the First Chronicles to convince herself that she could also make a difference. TC was her strength. The First Chronicles were her inner test. The Second Chronicles were her accomplishment in eliminating her past failures. The Final Chronicles are her closure.

Of course, I don't believe any of that crap. But I had fun writing it.

[lomillialor]

Of course, I don't believe any of that crap. But I had fun writing it.

Funny!

But I agree--it is possible Linden is dreaming all this, but it's unlikely that's SRD's intent IMHO.

[Lord Defile]

And I thought I was bored! lol. Although you do have some good points I'm still rather inclined to agree with your final statement.