I first read the Chronicles over 20 years ago and was an instant fan. There weren't any internet fan clubs in those days but I remember that a group of us used to discuss it at school, and i thought I knew the book back to front.
I've recently started reading it again and, it's amazing, but there's a lot I had forgotten. Funnily enough I tend to remember the full details of each sub-plot just before i actually read it again. E.g. I'd forgotten that Troy betrayed his Bloodguard, Ruel, when Flesharrower summoned the vortex of trepidation, and that he then lost his sight. But it all came back to me just as I started reading that chapter!
The biggest thing though, is that I've noticed how much less tolerant i am of Covenant. Twenty years ago, I felt some sympathy for him, some understanding. I could empathise with his attitude and more easily excuse his behaviour.
But now, Covenant seems an abomination to me. His self pitying, stubborn refusal to help the land and it's people appear inexcusable.
In particular, his rape of Lena is appalling. Even 20 years ago this was shocking of course; but in view of his leprosy and unbelief, and his later remorse, this seemed somehow forgiveable. Reading it now, however, it seems totally unforgiveable. The fact that he could do that to someone marks him out for what he is: essentially selfish, uncaring and evil. Reading it now, i don't think he ever properly pays for that act.
And it occurs to me too that the rape of Lena is why TC can never be made into a successful film, not unless that scene is not included (but how could it not be?). It is just too monstrous, too abhorrent, for it to be acceptable to mainstream audiences. How can even the most masterful director find a way to make the audience support Covenant after that?
Reading Covenant 20 years on
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Hi landroval. Welcome.
I have the same opinion as you. I read it over 20 years ago and was absorbed by the character, sympathizing with him and feeling that 'I knew him'. But reading it recently I was struck how much I had changed/grown as an individual since my early teenage years, and I too was less sympathetic towards TC. I can still understand his choices and reasonings, but could not sympathize with his choices or attitudes.
It was a struggle to read the 1st chrons last year again, and felt releif in getting to the second chrons, with the introduction of a relatively 'refreshing' character in Linden.
Now that we have had Runes,
I have the same opinion as you. I read it over 20 years ago and was absorbed by the character, sympathizing with him and feeling that 'I knew him'. But reading it recently I was struck how much I had changed/grown as an individual since my early teenage years, and I too was less sympathetic towards TC. I can still understand his choices and reasonings, but could not sympathize with his choices or attitudes.
It was a struggle to read the 1st chrons last year again, and felt releif in getting to the second chrons, with the introduction of a relatively 'refreshing' character in Linden.
Now that we have had Runes,
Spoiler
I am loving Linden even more and the spectre of TC hangs in the air, charging towards Revelstone ... The Fatal Revenant has arrived.... (cue dramatic music...)
Last edited by Usivius on Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Somberlain
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Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!Usivius wrote:Hi landroval. Welcome.
I have the same opinion as you. I read it over 20 years ago and was absorbed by the character, sympathizing with him and feeling that 'I knew him'. But reading it recently I was struck how much I had changed/grown as an individual since my early teenage years, and I too was less sympathetic towards TC. I can still understand his choices and reasonings, but could not sympathize with his choices or attitudes.
It was a struggle to read the 1st chrons last year again, and felt releif in getting to the second chrons, with the introduction of a relatively 'refreshing' character in Linden.Spoiler
Now that we have had Runes, I am loving Linden even more and the spectre of TC hangs in the air, charging towards Revelstone ... The Fatal Revenant has arrived.... (cue dramatic music...)
I don't plan on reading the 2nd Chronicles again, alas. I wasn't a fan of that particular book first time round, I endured it rather than enjoyed it. Ironically I might enjoy it more 20 years on, it's true, but I'd have to order it again as i lost my original books while at uni.
Even the very wise cannot see all ends.
Oh, gawd. I just spent half an hour rattling on about how I'm appreciating the construction of the books this time around, and got logged out. The post was et in the sending. Cripes.
In fine: I now think there's a lot more craft in these books than I originally gave the author credit for. The secondary characters were always the life of the story for me, but now I realize they were intended to place the reader into the story alongside the (admittedly annoying) protagonist, and that stikes me as quite clever. It's meant to involve, and it succeeds. Nifty.
I concluded with some gratuitious Hile Troy love, but it's probably just as well that part was lost.
(What? Somebody has to love Hile Troy. *nuzzles*)
In fine: I now think there's a lot more craft in these books than I originally gave the author credit for. The secondary characters were always the life of the story for me, but now I realize they were intended to place the reader into the story alongside the (admittedly annoying) protagonist, and that stikes me as quite clever. It's meant to involve, and it succeeds. Nifty.
I concluded with some gratuitious Hile Troy love, but it's probably just as well that part was lost.
(What? Somebody has to love Hile Troy. *nuzzles*)
the rue of the melody could not be mistaken
Hiya
I re-read the 6 books last year, in preparation for reading Runes, and I was (again) outraged by some of Covenant's actions / inactions - I think I took that stance 20 years ago, but cannot remember - I do recall thinking the world of the Bloodgaurd, and its interesting how their approach has been shown to have its limitations.
I would recommend re-reading the 2nd Chronicles, as its important to have that before you read the Runes
I re-read the 6 books last year, in preparation for reading Runes, and I was (again) outraged by some of Covenant's actions / inactions - I think I took that stance 20 years ago, but cannot remember - I do recall thinking the world of the Bloodgaurd, and its interesting how their approach has been shown to have its limitations.
I would recommend re-reading the 2nd Chronicles, as its important to have that before you read the Runes
Shihad
Fat Freddy's Drop
Katchafire
Fat Freddy's Drop
Katchafire
Re: Reading Covenant 20 years on
I also first read the Chronicles over 20 years ago. I haven't posted for a while, but I decided to respond to your statements:Landroval wrote:I first read the Chronicles over 20 years ago and was an instant fan. There weren't any internet fan clubs in those days but I remember that a group of us used to discuss it at school, and i thought I knew the book back to front.
I've recently started reading it again and, it's amazing, but there's a lot I had forgotten. Funnily enough I tend to remember the full details of each sub-plot just before i actually read it again. E.g. I'd forgotten that Troy betrayed his Bloodguard, Ruel, when Flesharrower summoned the vortex of trepidation, and that he then lost his sight. But it all came back to me just as I started reading that chapter!
The biggest thing though, is that I've noticed how much less tolerant i am of Covenant. Twenty years ago, I felt some sympathy for him, some understanding. I could empathise with his attitude and more easily excuse his behaviour.
But now, Covenant seems an abomination to me. His self pitying, stubborn refusal to help the land and it's people appear inexcusable.
In particular, his rape of Lena is appalling. Even 20 years ago this was shocking of course; but in view of his leprosy and unbelief, and his later remorse, this seemed somehow forgiveable. Reading it now, however, it seems totally unforgiveable. The fact that he could do that to someone marks him out for what he is: essentially selfish, uncaring and evil. Reading it now, i don't think he ever properly pays for that act.
And it occurs to me too that the rape of Lena is why TC can never be made into a successful film, not unless that scene is not included (but how could it not be?). It is just too monstrous, too abhorrent, for it to be acceptable to mainstream audiences. How can even the most masterful director find a way to make the audience support Covenant after that?
We are all entitled to our own opinions, and this is a good place to state them. I, to, have struggled with Covenants attitude in the first series, but I would always remind myself that his situation demands that he be self-centered and uncaring; no one else cares about him. If he was anything else, he would die (somehow) of depression. It is more than a matter of choice to him because he has more at stake than you or I do. TC was set up for the rape, with Lena fawning over him since she first saw him. We all react differently (sometimes regrettably) in desparate situations, which is what happened to him.
As for the rape scene being detramental to the prospects of the series ever becoming a movie, I don't think it would. The Woodsman, staring Kevan Bacon, was about a reforming child molester and didn't exactly "lay an egg" at the box office.
"Well, jynnan tonnyx all around then."
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I just reread the 1st and 2nd Chronicles before starting on Runes, and I experienced almost the reverse. It may be because the last time I read the books (not 20 years ago, but quite a few), I read almost 'too fast' - I tend to read inattentively because I'm so wrapped up in the story. Know what I mean? I remember finding Covenant annoying because of his passivity, expecially in the first Chronicles. He whined and complained a lot as far as I was concerned. And there was the rape, of course - that really defined him as an anti-hero.
Anyway, this time I paid more attention to detail and character, and found that I understand TC a lot better. Not that I'm condoning rape, mind you, but he's so completely set up for it. He's been numb for years, his wife's left him, he enters this sort of dream world and he can feel! He's like a drunk, overwhelmed, and completely forgets himself. (Oh well you guys know the story.)
What I'm saying is that it somehow made more sense to me (and is more understandable, to an extent) than before. Moreover, I now better grasp its importance for many of his actions, decisions and his 6-book guilt trip!
Anyway, this time I paid more attention to detail and character, and found that I understand TC a lot better. Not that I'm condoning rape, mind you, but he's so completely set up for it. He's been numb for years, his wife's left him, he enters this sort of dream world and he can feel! He's like a drunk, overwhelmed, and completely forgets himself. (Oh well you guys know the story.)
What I'm saying is that it somehow made more sense to me (and is more understandable, to an extent) than before. Moreover, I now better grasp its importance for many of his actions, decisions and his 6-book guilt trip!
Last edited by Spiral Jacobs on Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I think that I understood the story (and the characters) a lot better as an adult than a "hack and slay" teenager who was only into fanstasy for the fight scenes. I therefore consider I understood TC better, and as Spiral says, I grasped the importance of his actions and inactions, and how decisions he made had ramifications throughout the rest of the books.
Shihad
Fat Freddy's Drop
Katchafire
Fat Freddy's Drop
Katchafire
I first read the Chrons in 1980, I think... the summer TWL came out. My friends and I would sit around and get really deep into the details, the characters, the LAND... it made my enjoyment so much greater. I didn't hang out w/ them by the time of TOT, and didn't know anyone at school who was reading it, so I never got to get into it the same way.
I probably haven't reread any of the books in at least 15 years (of course I've read MN and the Gap), didn't have copies of most of them, and didn't know about the Watch or SRD.com... or that the 3rd Chrons was being published until I randomly happened across Runes in a Barnes and Noble... I wasn't willing to wait to reread all 6 before Runes.
I was at my parents' in LA over the holidays, and there in the bookshelf, were all 6. In hardback. Too cool. I brought them home with me. Really looking forward to reading them again, especially after all the awesome stuff here... I still think I remember most of it (especially the first Chrons) but I'm sure they'll be very different to me after so many years.
Relayer
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Me to SRD at a book signing for Mirror... : "Will you ever publish the 3rd Chronicles?"
SRD: "I have it up here," he said, tapping his forehead. "But I'm not sure I'm brave enough."
Me: "Be true."
I probably haven't reread any of the books in at least 15 years (of course I've read MN and the Gap), didn't have copies of most of them, and didn't know about the Watch or SRD.com... or that the 3rd Chrons was being published until I randomly happened across Runes in a Barnes and Noble... I wasn't willing to wait to reread all 6 before Runes.
I was at my parents' in LA over the holidays, and there in the bookshelf, were all 6. In hardback. Too cool. I brought them home with me. Really looking forward to reading them again, especially after all the awesome stuff here... I still think I remember most of it (especially the first Chrons) but I'm sure they'll be very different to me after so many years.
Relayer
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Me to SRD at a book signing for Mirror... : "Will you ever publish the 3rd Chronicles?"
SRD: "I have it up here," he said, tapping his forehead. "But I'm not sure I'm brave enough."
Me: "Be true."
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I had a similar experience rereading the 1st two trilogies: Covenanant's crimes now seem a lot worse. Maybe it was because I didn't fully understand how horrible rape was at 13, or how serious the concept of responsibility for one's actions can be. Yes, that's it. As a teenager, I thought that bad stuff you did could be swept under the rug easier, because I was not at a point in my life where I accepted the responsibility of my actions.
But now I understand Covenant's crime better. I recognize the abhorrent nature of it better because I face it with more authenticity as a reader. It makes me look at my own mistakes, and I'm now willilng to acknowledge them more readily.
So at the same time, I'm simultaneously more appalled by Covenant, but more forgiving as well, since his character grows and he tries to make amends for his actions--or at least grieves for his mistakes. Sometimes I wish I had a Banefire to purge me, too.
But now I understand Covenant's crime better. I recognize the abhorrent nature of it better because I face it with more authenticity as a reader. It makes me look at my own mistakes, and I'm now willilng to acknowledge them more readily.
So at the same time, I'm simultaneously more appalled by Covenant, but more forgiving as well, since his character grows and he tries to make amends for his actions--or at least grieves for his mistakes. Sometimes I wish I had a Banefire to purge me, too.
Joe Biden … putting the Dem in dementia since (at least) 2020.
Sorry to go against the tide but I too recently reread the 1st two Chronicles but came away with a different take on TC. My first reading of the Chronicles occurred as the volumes were originally published. I was in my earlier thirties, married (Still am!) with two young sons.
As a life long sci fan I picked up Lord Fouls Bane expecting something similar to Tolkien. Obviously my expectations were proved wrong after about page one. I'm not sure what kept me reading but the more I pages I turned, the more intrigued I was with the plot and its use of an apparent anti-hero as the central character. I can vividly recall yelling at TC for being so self centered and not being a person I would like to personally know. This continued for 6 books and number of years.
When I learned Donaldson was going to bring us back into the Land with a 3rd Chronicles, I dug through my old books and reread all 6 volumes. Since I more or less remembered the story, I took a much more patient reading trying to focus on what and who TC really was. With this reading I still found TC frustrating but much more understandable. On page one of LFB, his is told to be ashamed of himself for no apparent reason other than be afflicted with leprosy. Then, he appears in a strange land and is healed. I would think most people would struggle with such a new reality or lack thereof. After having spent a number of years with learning to deal with his disease, he refused to allow a dream, or so he thought, place him in mortal danger. What did it matter if he refused to help anyone or rape someone - this was nothing more than his imagination? Would anyone in a similar circumstance react that much differently.
By the time we reach the White Gold Wielder, TC is still the Unbeliever but his does make an attempt to free both himself and the Land from his Bane. Is TC a man to admire or scorn? From my first reading the latter, but from my last reading probably more the former. He is certainly an imperfect hero and man. But, who doesn't have elements of TC failures in their daily life.
I don't know where Donaldson is taking the Land and TC. But, I for one hope TC and the Land are saved from an eternal doom. The Good fight against Evil is certainly an imperfect effort in our reality but I have no doubt of the outcome. I hope SRD does the same for our anit-hero.
As a life long sci fan I picked up Lord Fouls Bane expecting something similar to Tolkien. Obviously my expectations were proved wrong after about page one. I'm not sure what kept me reading but the more I pages I turned, the more intrigued I was with the plot and its use of an apparent anti-hero as the central character. I can vividly recall yelling at TC for being so self centered and not being a person I would like to personally know. This continued for 6 books and number of years.
When I learned Donaldson was going to bring us back into the Land with a 3rd Chronicles, I dug through my old books and reread all 6 volumes. Since I more or less remembered the story, I took a much more patient reading trying to focus on what and who TC really was. With this reading I still found TC frustrating but much more understandable. On page one of LFB, his is told to be ashamed of himself for no apparent reason other than be afflicted with leprosy. Then, he appears in a strange land and is healed. I would think most people would struggle with such a new reality or lack thereof. After having spent a number of years with learning to deal with his disease, he refused to allow a dream, or so he thought, place him in mortal danger. What did it matter if he refused to help anyone or rape someone - this was nothing more than his imagination? Would anyone in a similar circumstance react that much differently.
By the time we reach the White Gold Wielder, TC is still the Unbeliever but his does make an attempt to free both himself and the Land from his Bane. Is TC a man to admire or scorn? From my first reading the latter, but from my last reading probably more the former. He is certainly an imperfect hero and man. But, who doesn't have elements of TC failures in their daily life.
I don't know where Donaldson is taking the Land and TC. But, I for one hope TC and the Land are saved from an eternal doom. The Good fight against Evil is certainly an imperfect effort in our reality but I have no doubt of the outcome. I hope SRD does the same for our anit-hero.
In the course of the last 3 weeks, I have almost re-read both the First and Second Chronicles of Thomnas Covenant (I'm up to White Gold Wielder) for the first time in about 15 years. This will be the third time for me reading the entire series, and as far as I'm concerned it just gets better and better.
I was thrilled to find a new book released. The first I heard of it was in a book catalogue, with the hardcover selling for $12. I bought it the same day
But for me, it's Linden Avery that has been giving me the shits. I've always sympathised, and sadly enough, empathised with TC, but Linden's character has always been harder for me to accept. I'm getting there now, and look forward to re-reading the new one now that I've refreshed my memory of what went before.
It's been a blast of a month. 6 Covenant books in just over 3 weeks. Go TC!!!
I was thrilled to find a new book released. The first I heard of it was in a book catalogue, with the hardcover selling for $12. I bought it the same day
But for me, it's Linden Avery that has been giving me the shits. I've always sympathised, and sadly enough, empathised with TC, but Linden's character has always been harder for me to accept. I'm getting there now, and look forward to re-reading the new one now that I've refreshed my memory of what went before.
It's been a blast of a month. 6 Covenant books in just over 3 weeks. Go TC!!!
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Well, you'll find a number of people who both agree and disagree with you about Linden. If you've read Runes, check out SeaReaches excellent thread in the Runes forum, for an eloquent defence of her. Or, look for THOOLAH (The Holy Order Of Linden Avery Haters) posts for mindless anti-Linden raving. 
Have fun Djaef, and welcome once again.
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Have fun Djaef, and welcome once again.
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On this reread I'm noticing that I can understand and like Covenant a lot more than I used to. I remember that I didn't particularly like Covenant when I first read Lord Foul's Bane, but now I find him sympathetic. I think my seeing things from more than one angle has definitely improved with life experience. I'm even able to see Lord Foul's point nowadays...
It's funny to see that people apparently become either more or less absolute in these things as they get older. I think it's probably that people either have a tendency towards absolutism or not, and with life experience it becomes either "I didn't understand how horrible rape is" or "I didn't understand how horrible leprosy is".
It's funny to see that people apparently become either more or less absolute in these things as they get older. I think it's probably that people either have a tendency towards absolutism or not, and with life experience it becomes either "I didn't understand how horrible rape is" or "I didn't understand how horrible leprosy is".