Foul; Seerer, Prophet or both?

[Empusae]

As I work my way through the first series again I am struck by a rather interesting question.

Is foul akin to Berek in that he is both Seer and prophet?


Frankly I would say he has to be. We are speaking of a man who doesn't plan only in years or decades. Every deal anyone seems to make goes badly in, seemingly, some plan or plot of fouls. We see Covenant rape Leena and it comes back to haunt him for just how long? His deal with the Ranyhyn ends up causing so much death. Even Foamfollowers use of the heartloam to heal a foe he hurt in battle instead of Pitten plays to what Foul wants.

Then, at the end of the 1st we see the staff of law destroyed and foul is, kind of, defeated. *cheer*


Only we then find out that that this allows Foul to run loose slowly corrupting the new council and the law of the land itself with the sunbane.

Covenant gives his life and with Linden’s help we make the land beautiful again and produce a new staff of law. *cheer again*


Only the vow the new bloodguard make is really flawed and, prob with Foul’s help, it ends up setting them up, not as the stewards of the land but as its prison guards (in a way).

So again we have a good idea twisted to the point where it leaves the peoples of the land completely unready for anything foul throws at them.


So, the question I ask myself is Foul just REALLY good at grabbing every opportunity or is he able to tell what will happen and directing people to do what will do him the most good in the long run?




Also, in my opinion, a nice way to put it would be this:

You are playing a game of chess against someone who doesn’t just see moves ahead, he sees entire years of games ahead and can play in such a way as to almost guarantee that he will win the most important game when the time comes.

[Nerdanel]

I've also been thinking that Lord Foul is indeed a seer and a prophet. However, I don't think he was planning anything from one Chronicles to the next. He honestly thought he would get free THIS time. He's good at grabbing opportunities too.

We see Foul prophesying to Covenant both in the beginning of the First and the Second Chronicles. The prophecies come true, but not quite the way he thinks. Foul does get the command of life and death and Covenant does give him the ring, but Foul gets defeated anyway.

Spoiler

In the Last Chronicles Linden gets to see inside Foul's mind and shares two visions he has.

We don't know what else Foul has seen, but Elena breaking the Law of Death could be a good guess. Somewhere in The Illearth War there is a quote about how only a seer and a prophet may safely use EarthBlood, and Lord Foul clearly arranged for Elena to get the opportunity. This suggests he had some foreknowledge of what would happen. Although he cannot know everything (even the Elohim don't) what he knew was enough in this case. Lord Foul likes to keep himself informed, and being a seer and a prohet is only a part of it. There is plenty of evidence that he also uses more traditional intelligence and is familiar with every sort of lore.

[Xar]

Then of course, his own status as an entirely different sort of being than anyone else in the Land's Earth would mean that, at the very least, his mind is far more clever than most beings - on par with the Creator, most likely, although it could be constrained (and diminished) due to his imprisonment in the Arch. And he also has the benefit of time: he can literally wait for centuries, setting up all the conditions he needs for his latest plan.

There are, however, some limitations to his foresight; as shown in the end of the First Chronicles, where he doesn't immediately attempt to use his power to have Covenant give him the ring because he's afraid Covenant already learned how to call up its power, or in the SC, where he fails to learn about Covenant's caamora in the Banefire and his subsequent apotheosis. Still, I would agree with Nerdanel that Foul is a seer and prophet - or at least, he has equivalent abilities. Of course, seeing something and interpreting it are two different matters; and Foul's desire to escape his prison, his anger at the prison and at the Creator... all these emotions tend to cloud his judgment somewhat.

[KAY1]

Not to mention the fact that his foresight may only stretch so far into the future and doesnt cover every eventuality. After all Berek obviously didn't see what would happen to Kevin or he would have left some warning. Either that or Berek saw So far into the future he maybe knew that Kevin would need to be betrayed etc in order for Covenant to save the Land then Linden in 2nd chrons and who knows what may happen in the last?

I guess there is no real way of telling until the end, but I think prophecy is inexact as has been said in the sense that you have to interpret what you see before anything else.

[Avatar]

And interpretation may well be seated in your own desires and expectations, leading you to "see" what you wanted to.

--A

[Buckarama]

I always thought that it was free choice that made everything a mess for Foul.

He can see everything, just can't make choices for TC or Linden.

[KAY1]

Yes he just tries to manipulate them to serviing his ends.

[Xar]

I don't think he can see everything. I think he can see enough, and then his superior intellect (I think nobody doubts that Foul's intellect is superior to most other people, given the intricacies of his plans and the simple fact that he has had millennia in which to nurture it) allows him to draw out likely situations. I think he can probably see the most important events (i.e. Covenant giving him the ring) but not how exactly that will happen (so he didn't see the Banefire caamora, for example). In any case, check SRD's thoughts on foresight (Mhoram's, in that case) in the Fantasy Bedtime Hour

[Caer Bombadil]

I think Xar is on to it. Foul might catch some real glimpses of the future, but primarily he analyzes, calculates, and extrapolates. His outlook, worldview, approach is characteristically smooth, analytical, linear, and deterministic. He does not recognize the significance of chance or random hidden factors. His policies are vast predetermined textbook chess games designed ultimately to produce checkmates.

In order to make his plans effective, Foul attempts to anticipate and manipulate what free people will do in certain situations. He succeeded with Kevin, and ever afterwards thought he had the "formula" down pat.

As Buckarama points out, free will is something he can't analyze or deal with except by trying to destroy it, e.g. with despair, using it for reducing people to acting reflexively on their most primitive instincts. That is why free will was required to use the white gold and save the Land. Foul was frustrated only whenever the insignificant little free peeps stubbornly refused to be intimidated and driven to despair by the dilemmas in which he attempted to trap them.

[Nerdanel]

Lord Foul could just have killed some people and had a Soothtell...

But anyways, I think he sees only glimpses and glimpses can deceive even someone who makes a point of preparing for every eventuality like Lord Foul. The thing is, he can put a barrier to Covenant's front, back, left, and right, and make the floor of adamantite, but it's not going to help him if Covenant does something sufficiently unthinkable, such as flies away. Lord Foul is learning all the time though. The next time the trap is going to have a roof, and Covenant will have to learn metaphorical teleporting in a hurry.

[wayfriend]

First: I have read SRD's comments on this in the GI, and they do not satisfy. Too many of Foul's predictions are verbalized in specifics and ahve come to be true; none have not. Donaldson stated that other roads can lead to Foul's success; I don't doubt it. But Foul's predictions include predicting the road.

Second: I have to bring up this point: Foul may very well have seen his defeat as per First and Second Chronicles. It may be that in the very, very, VERY long range plan, those defeats were essential elements in his plan! It may be that they are the only way for Foul to get to ... well, to get to whatever happens in the Final Chronicles. After all, Foul was defeated but not ended; if he could forsee that he would continue, and that it would ultimately lead to his victory...