Roger and White Gold

[blackholearmy]

Now, this has been nagging at me for some time, now. Roger killed people, kidnapped people, all to get at Linden's white gold ring.

However, this makes absolutely no sense. Covenant and Joan got each other rings for their wedding. Would it really be *that* hard to go buy some white gold for Lord Foul? I mean, what with his mind-controlling people in the Second Chronicles, he can summon people, so, put two and two together, and, voila, Lord Foul has white gold. I'm still fairly confused as to why Foul hasn't gone and done this.

Thoughts?

[variol son]

In The Power that Preserves, Mhoram says to Covenant, "You are the white gold". Then, in White Gold Wielder, Covenant "becomes" the Arch of Time after he dies.

I think that the white gold is only as important as the person it belongs to - therefore the two particular rings that we have in Runes of the Earth, Covenant's and Joan's, are only important because of their connection to Covenant, who has been chosen by both the Creator and the Despiser.

So Roger can use both rings because he is Covenant and Joan's son, Linden can use Covenant's ring because he gave it to her, and Troy could use Covenant's ring in The Illearth War for the same reason. The ring has less to do with it than Covenant does, in my opinion.

After all, it's possible that a white gold ring is the means of articulating wild magic because that's what Covenant chose to put in the beggars bowl at the start of Lord Foul's Bane. Especially if you think that the Land cannot exist with Covenant (and later Linden as well).

[blackholearmy]

However, it still doesn't explain why Roger wanted Covenant's ring. I mean, after it becomes his, it has no difference to, say, a white gold ring he bought in the jewellery store down the street.

EDIT: I think I might see now, after reading Joan's Swift Doom of the Land.

[variol son]

But it will have a difference, because it was Covenant's (or Joan's actually, but they both represented the same thing to Covenant) and it will have been legitimately inherited, which I'm thinking is about the same as Covenant gifting Linden the ring.

And speaking of the ring belonging to Covenant or Joan - I'm thinking that it is possible that only Joan's ring could create ceasures as since it is hers and she is insane, whereas both Covenant and Linden are sane. So does that mental state of the ring's rightful owner (not just the barer) affect the ring at all? Hmmm.

[Xar]

Well, Covenant's ring created at least one caesure when Linden used it to do so...

[variol son]

True. Nevermind then.

[dlbpharmd]

Vs's post and explanation comes closest to what I believe.

[Xar]

Yes, but remember that regardless of which white gold ring Roger can use, neither he nor his mother can wield enough power to wrack the Arch of Time, by virtue of both of them being tools of the Despiser in their separate ways (or, in Joan's case, being controlled by the Despiser through a Raver).

[variol son]

That's right - they can drive either Covenant or Linden to destroy the Arch themselves, and I suspect that eventually the ceasures would would cause the Arch to crumble.

[MrKABC]

I am expecting a battle between the two white gold rings. I think that would be an awesome "sight" to behold...

[drew]

I just thought of something...I didn't want to start a new thread; so this one seemed close enough...

Here it is...

What if Joan was too slow; I mean taking baby Roger away from Thomas...what if he was infected with Hansen's disease.
What if Roger has leprosy?

I think that could change a lot of things going on in the story. It would give him a real reason to want to enact revenge on Covenant.

To get philosiphical here..he could be-he could have always been Lord Foul..if the Land was UnReal. Foul may be Covenants guilt for infecting his son Manifested as a super-villan.
I know that last part may have ebeen a stretch...but Foul keeps getting smarter-just as Roger keeps getting older...and Foul is starting to look like Covenant-just like Roger.

[Xar]

I just thought of something...I didn't want to start a new thread; so this one seemed close enough...

Here it is...

What if Joan was too slow; I mean taking baby Roger away from Thomas...what if he was infected with Hansen's disease.
What if Roger has leprosy?

I think that could change a lot of things going on in the story. It would give him a real reason to want to enact revenge on Covenant.

To get philosiphical here..he could be-he could have always been Lord Foul..if the Land was UnReal. Foul may be Covenants guilt for infecting his son Manifested as a super-villan.
I know that last part may have ebeen a stretch...but Foul keeps getting smarter-just as Roger keeps getting older...and Foul is starting to look like Covenant-just like Roger.

I don't think Foul is Roger... it really would make little sense from an inside point of view. From that perspective, Foul is Thomas Covenant, or at least his "dark half"; whereas from an external perspective he's the immortal enemy of the Land. But in either case, from his talk with Joan in the institute it seems clear that he is just Foul's agent, like his mother before him. He has Foul's favor (or he had it at least until his death in the real world), but that's all. And since SRD has told us that the whole reality/unreality of the Land is no longer an issue (and all of Linden's experiences in the Land, plus several other details, pretty much clarify that the Land is real), I doubt he would create such a relationship that identifies Foul as Roger.

As for Roger getting leprosy: he wasn't close to Covenant long enough to get infected. Leprosy has a very slow infection rate, and even back then it went quiescent with medications; it is likely Roger could have stayed near Covenant for years without getting leprosy. Joan took him away because she was repelled, at least as much as she was worried for her son's health.

[Mr. Fishfinger]

Would it really be *that* hard to go buy some white gold for Lord Foul?

Ssshhhh! If you're not careful all of the characters will fall through a dirty great big hole in the logic of the story.

Nice post blackholearmy - I think it's a fair question at any rate, and I'm bummed I never asked it before you did!

[wayfriend]

I want to throw in a couple of things. Because it somewhat refines what VS said. (But this is not stuff I've said before.)

First, there is Pitchwife's explanation of articulation, which is the best explanation of the distinction between power and the form of power.

"... And the power of pitch arises as does any other, from the essence of the adept who wields it. All power is an articulation of its wielder. There is no other source than life - and the desire of that life to express itself. But there must also be a means of articulation. I can say little but that this pitch is my chosen means. Having said that, I have left you scarce wiser than before."

Linden shrugged away his disclaimer. "Then what you're saying," she murmured slowly, "is that the power of wild magic comes from Covenant himself? The ring is just his-his means of articulation?"

He nodded. "I believe that to be sooth. But the means controls intimately the nature of what may be expressed. By my pitch I may accomplish nothing for the knitting of broken limbs, just as no theurgy of the flesh may seal stone as I do."

When I read this, I don't see anything that says that a 'means of articulation' (aka an MOA) does not have any power of its own. Surely pitch has power - any man who touches it is petrified, whether or not it is wived by an adept. And white gold, as Donaldson has said in the GI, has power of its own as well. It had power when the Creator chose it to build the Arch. It had power when Kasreyn found it (in plain, unalloyed form) somewhere in the Earth.

So the result is like this: an adept uses the power of an MOA to express their own power. As if the first power opens a conduit; the second power then flows through it.

I think that anyone examining the rhadhamaerl and lillianrill of the Land would agree that that fits. There is earthpower in stone and wood; but the gravelingas and the hirebrand use it to weild their own power. And I think that much of the First Chronicles can be viewed as Covenant learning to be an adept with white gold, learning to use it to express his inner power.

But Donaldson doesn't it leave it simple. There is his "light switch" analogy.

Now. The Staff of Law was created as a means to wield the energy of Earthpower safely--i.e. without violating the various constraints of Law. But because this is magic rather than technology (because it deals in symbolic unities rather than in discrete mechanisms), the Staff cannot be inherently separate from the forces and rules which it exerts. It's not a light switch, essentially distinct from the flow of electricity which it enables. In a certain sense, the Staff *is* both Law and Earthpower, just as white gold *is* wild magic. In fantasy, in magic, the tool cannot be distinguished from what the tool does.

It's clear the author is establishing that white gold and the Staff of Law are similar in this regard. But the Staff was not originally unified with Law, it became so over use and, more generally, close association. The Staff is not Law by nature, but by adaptation. So white gold and wild magic must be in the same relative positions. White gold is not by nature the wild magic, but Covenant's ring has become unified with it through the course of Covenant's adventures.

No other white gold has that characteristic. Which is why no other white gold is the same.

And, if both Donaldson and Pitchwife are correct, then wild magic is the power that Covenant provides. White gold has power, but it's not wild magic. Only Covenant's ring can be called wild white magic gold.

Covenant is the one who is both mad and sane, cold and passionate, lost and found, who will save or damn - If wild magic had a source, only such a person could qualify.

As for Joan, she can't destroy the Arch because she can't destroy the Arch. She doesn't have the power, she doesn't have the right ring. Remember, Roger didn't even KNOW that Joan had the ring, and when he discovered it (in chapter one) he didn't even care, he kept on pressing for Thomas's ring.

[dlbpharmd]

Makes perfect sense to me.

[iQuestor]

OK. I have some questions:

It had power when Kasreyn found it

-- I don't remember Kaseryn of the Gyre finding any form of white gold. Where did I miss this?

Who can destroy the Arch of Time? Here is what it would take:

A croyel must take control of a raver who is possessing a Lord who was taken possesion of at the exact moment he was mind-melding with both covenant and Linden while they were both wielding white gold and Linden had the staff of Law shoved up her rear-end; Oh yes, and a wedge of ur-viles, led by a forrestal (who is also possessed by a raver) at the exact moment touched the croyel with their crozier. THEN, the Arch of Time is coming down, baby!!!

Just kidding, hope I didn't offend anyone. much.

[dlbpharmd]

OK. I have some questions:

Quote:
It had power when Kasreyn found it

-- I don't remember Kaseryn of the Gyre finding any form of white gold. Where did I miss this?

You missed the qualifying part of WF's post - plain, unalloyed means pure gold (i.e., yellow gold - which Kaseryn did have.)

[iQuestor]

Devils' Advocate, here:

Maybe Roger doesn't necessarily need the ring to use; maybe it is enough that Linden or TC's revenant doesn't have it....

You know, I am reminded of a part in IEW when Troy receives the ring from Covenant, just before he is made into Caer-Caveral by the forrestal:

"Take it. Save her." he put the band on Troy's hand.

The touch of the pulsing ring exhalted Troy. Clenching his fingers around it, he turned, ran fearlessly to the hillcrest... Like a titan, he swung his fist at the heavens; power flamed from the white gold as if it were answering his passions. In a livid voice he cried, 'Elena! Elena."

What gets me is Troy has no problem using the ring whatsoever; he can trigger it, no problem. Caerroil Wildwood stops him from furthwer damage:

"No." He trilled. I cannot permit this. This is a breaking of the Law."

Now, the question at hand is, how much power Troy would have had with the ring.

I think power is a question of person and choice. I agree with the earlier posts that the ring itself does have power, but only someone outside of the land could use it, and TC moreso because he was chosen by the creator, as well as Linden, later on.

[dlbpharmd]

Now, the question at hand is, how much power Troy would have had with the ring.

He certainly would've had enough power to defeat the Forestal, or else Wildwood wouldn't have been so concerned.

[Avatar]

I don't think that the ring itself necessarily has power though. I'll accept that it's a doorway to already existing power in the Land, but I wouldn't think it had any power in nd of itself.

--A