This is still allowed? On children, much less adults?
- sgt.null
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exactly. look at the bad parenting. these shocks replace parenting just as ritilan did. and as for being a drama queen? slippery slope Cail. just a few kids started out being medicated, and then legions of them. and I'm surprised that you advocate the goverment taking control of these kids.
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I'll be very interested to hear your assessment Lorelei. (And always nice to see you in here.)
I'm not sure what I think about this yet.
On the one hand, aversion training, whether by a shock or by spanking is much the same, except maybe by a matter of degree.
And I don't really see much harm in a swat on the behind to drive home the point that something is not to be done.
On the other hand, I think Pliss raises some important points about the abdication of parental responsibility. I haven't been to check out the site, so I don't know who is controlling this...how does the device know when to shock the kid?
And that point about why we have doctors...well...like SgtNull, I'm surprised to see that Cail seems to suggest that punishment of any kind should be given into the hands of others.
(Oh, Sgt, "Saving people from wearing themselves out beating kids..."? And come on folks, nobody is innocent of using hyperbole for effect here. )
I strongly agree with SoulQuest about the importance of not blaming all behavioural issues on ADHD and the like, and I know that many of you, maybe all of you, feel the same way. And I certainly oppose the prescription of drugs for anything that is not genuine ADHD.
But that brings me to the question of whether this "treatment" is any good for actual ADHD? Surely aversion therapy on an ADHD child is the equivalent of beating a child for using their left hand to write with?
Doesn't ADHD imply lack of choice on the childs behalf? Whereas aversion therapy implies that the child has a choice?
And if it's the doctors administering the shocks, it's not like they can follow the kids round all day...
I dunno.
I'm in favour of modifying behaviour through discipline. But think about what Esmer said...would anyone be in favour of putting a shock-collar on a kid to keep him in the garden?
And if somebody did it, don't you think there would be an outcry?
--A
I'm not sure what I think about this yet.
On the one hand, aversion training, whether by a shock or by spanking is much the same, except maybe by a matter of degree.
And I don't really see much harm in a swat on the behind to drive home the point that something is not to be done.
On the other hand, I think Pliss raises some important points about the abdication of parental responsibility. I haven't been to check out the site, so I don't know who is controlling this...how does the device know when to shock the kid?
And that point about why we have doctors...well...like SgtNull, I'm surprised to see that Cail seems to suggest that punishment of any kind should be given into the hands of others.
(Oh, Sgt, "Saving people from wearing themselves out beating kids..."? And come on folks, nobody is innocent of using hyperbole for effect here. )
I strongly agree with SoulQuest about the importance of not blaming all behavioural issues on ADHD and the like, and I know that many of you, maybe all of you, feel the same way. And I certainly oppose the prescription of drugs for anything that is not genuine ADHD.
But that brings me to the question of whether this "treatment" is any good for actual ADHD? Surely aversion therapy on an ADHD child is the equivalent of beating a child for using their left hand to write with?
Doesn't ADHD imply lack of choice on the childs behalf? Whereas aversion therapy implies that the child has a choice?
And if it's the doctors administering the shocks, it's not like they can follow the kids round all day...
I dunno.
I'm in favour of modifying behaviour through discipline. But think about what Esmer said...would anyone be in favour of putting a shock-collar on a kid to keep him in the garden?
And if somebody did it, don't you think there would be an outcry?
--A
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Jesus Dennis, who said a word about the government taking control of anyone's kids? Once again, did you actually read the link or are you just ranting from your bizzaro world?
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- Menolly
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I'm sorry, having a child with AS I can't, I simply can't, blame all of the numbers of children with these issues on 'bad parenting.' I know there are truly neurological issues going on with many of these kids.
But I also do not use aversion therapy or medication for Beorn. I admit we are heavy into nutritional supplementation for some of his stims, but for him it appears to work.
However, there are several posters on the Parenting AS support board I post on whose children are taking various medication which they swear by. These are SAHM's whose lives revolve around their children. These children also have co-morbid conditions (anxiety, ADHD, etc.) that the medication is for, since at the current time there is no known medication for AS. And the descriptions these moms give are not of drugged-out little zombies.
But, if Beorn's outward behaviors were to suddenly worsen, I would still be hard pressed to turn to medicating or aversion therapy without searching for less invasive alternatives first.
But I also do not use aversion therapy or medication for Beorn. I admit we are heavy into nutritional supplementation for some of his stims, but for him it appears to work.
However, there are several posters on the Parenting AS support board I post on whose children are taking various medication which they swear by. These are SAHM's whose lives revolve around their children. These children also have co-morbid conditions (anxiety, ADHD, etc.) that the medication is for, since at the current time there is no known medication for AS. And the descriptions these moms give are not of drugged-out little zombies.
But, if Beorn's outward behaviors were to suddenly worsen, I would still be hard pressed to turn to medicating or aversion therapy without searching for less invasive alternatives first.
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Aversion therapy has been known to be successful in cases of mental illness.
As far as I can tell from the information I have gathered, the electrical aversion therapy is one of the last resort methods of behavior modification. When I went back and read the article posted at the beginning of the thread, it was implied that all students were equipped with the GED....a bit misleading I think. Not every child will respond to traditional therapies. Sometimes nutrition helps, sometimes talk therapy helps, sometimes medical therapy helps, sometimes conditioning helps....all I am saying is that the GED is a tool, one of many, that seems to help some children.
As far as I can tell from the information I have gathered, the electrical aversion therapy is one of the last resort methods of behavior modification. When I went back and read the article posted at the beginning of the thread, it was implied that all students were equipped with the GED....a bit misleading I think. Not every child will respond to traditional therapies. Sometimes nutrition helps, sometimes talk therapy helps, sometimes medical therapy helps, sometimes conditioning helps....all I am saying is that the GED is a tool, one of many, that seems to help some children.
What I want to know is WHY do we have so many kids with this previously unknown disorder, and how many of them would benefit from nutritional supplements instead of drugs?Menolly wrote:I'm sorry, having a child with AS I can't, I simply can't, blame all of the numbers of children with these issues on 'bad parenting.' I know there are truly neurological issues going on with many of these kids.
But I also do not use aversion therapy or medication for Beorn. I admit we are heavy into nutritional supplementation for some of his stims, but for him it appears to work.
However, there are several posters on the Parenting AS support board I post on whose children are taking various medication which they swear by. These are SAHM's whose lives revolve around their children. These children also have co-morbid conditions (anxiety, ADHD, etc.) that the medication is for, since at the current time there is no known medication for AS. And the descriptions these moms give are not of drugged-out little zombies.
But, if Beorn's outward behaviors were to suddenly worsen, I would still be hard pressed to turn to medicating or aversion therapy without searching for less invasive alternatives first.
(And just how is a "psychological" disorder brought under control by vitamins, anyway? Sounds to me like maybe a good many of these kids just need parents like Menolly - ones who have the time and interest to actually figure out what their individual child needs.)
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- SoulQuest1970
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As I have said, I have worked with these kids. To function in school, my girls take a low dose of Concerta to help them concentrate and it was a last resort. Thier pediatrition is against medicating kids unless there are no other options and very against the massive doses most doctors give. I also do not medicate them on weekends and summers because they do not have to pay attention in class. Thier meds wear off around 4 in the afternoon. Most kids with ADHD are on twice or 3 times more than they are and take doses twice a day. My kids are not "doped out of thier minds." I even have been on it... also a low dose. The first thought I had after about 30 minutes of taking the first dose is, "So this is what normal is!? I can think about one thing at a time!" I normally think and do multiple things at once just to function. I can do it without meds, but it is a lot harder. I am currently not on meds. I took them briefly while I was back in school because I would sit down to do a drafting project, work 15 min, get up and walk 15 min, work 10, walk 20, etc, etc. Once I got on the meds I was able to sit down and complete a task. This is the reason I have trouble writing anything longer than a short story. I do have issues with physical corrective behavior modification beyond physically moving the child to a safe location and/or physically guiding them to help them focus or complete a task. What it boils down to is if this was you, how would you want to be treated? A child acts out because they need something they cannot express. In theory I also do not beleive in spanking, but my hand sure does. Thats a family joke. Even when I do spank (mostly Nick da monkey man) it is not hard... just enough to get his attention. I recall how I felt as a child. When I felt out of control what I wanted was someone to show me and help me regain control. There are children that have some disabilities that make them very unreasonable and theoretically I could see this is a possiblity, but I am still doubtful. Also the children that fit in this category are very rare. I find the best way with an out of control child is I do NOT bend to thier level... you can get punched in the face. I pick them up off thier little feet and put them at my eye level. This brings eye contact, but makes them realize someone is taking control for them. Then speak calmly and clearly in no uncertain terms that thier behavior is totally unacceptable. So far this has never failed and kids love being with me. Most of the kids at my kids' school call me "Mama T." Some kids come up to me that I've never met and ask, "Are you Alex's mom?" I say yes and they grin and go, "Cool!" I will joke with my son when I sweep him off his feet and ask, "Do you want a piece of me?!" or "Does my hand and your butt need to have a conversation?!" He giggles and says no. His behavior clears up and we use humor to do it. Kids respond very much as you would. Wouldn't you rather have someone in control help you regain control or would you rather get a shock or an enraged spanking out of the blue? How is this helpful? I would not speak about this if I did not have experience beyond my own kids. I taught preschool for 6 years before having my own and then continued in the public school special ed after I had my own. I've worked with mentally retarded, learning disabled, ADHD, autistic, cerbal palsey kids, and those with serious behavior problems. No matter the disablility or reason for behavior, kids need above all to know they are loved and feel safe while having firm guidance on how to behave appropriately.
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Pliss... it has been found that some behavior problems are linked to food allergies. Often to various food colorings. It can help some kids. First try gentle correction, then check for food allergies/sensativities, etc. Meds and other forms of correction are last resort and in some rare cases even these do not help. Often it is frustrated parents, but sometimes it goes beyond that.
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by Superchick
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- Menolly
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I don't. That's why I started this thread.Avatar wrote:We're not saying that all these problems are down to parenting.
But do you think that aversion therapy would work in cases where it's not?
Isn't that just punishing the child for something they can't help?
And if it does, it still smacks too much of A Clockwork Orange to me, which IMO quite effectively shows that such tactics do not cure the root of the problem, but only programs in a 'trained dog' response to the undesired stimulus.
I can attempt to answer this from the POV of a parent who has done a lot of reading on the subject of AS over the past few years. Some may apply to ADHD, but my experience is strictly with AS.Plissken wrote:What I want to know is WHY do we have so many kids with this previously unknown disorder
AS was first written about and documented by Hans Asperger in 1944, so that alone is fairly recent. However, it was not even recognized by the rest of psychological/psychiatric community until the 1990s. I think the article that started it all at that time was written by Wang? Wing? Something like that (I'm at work and don't have time to pull up my resources).
The sudden numbers jump, in the USA anyway IMO, can be attributed to more pediatricians being informed of the disorder and better methods of evaluating for it. Paul and I both believe that Paul is somewhere on the autism spectrum, but other than doing things I shudder at hearing about and praise HaShem he was never caught and thrown in jail for as a teen, whatever he has appears to have gifted him in many ways.
Would getting diagnosed and treated as a child have affected his gifts? I think we'll never know, but I think his adolescence (sp?) would have been much easier on him, much less his parents.
I honestly believe there are literally hundreds (thousands?) of American adults with an undiagnosed ASD. I think this affects these adults in their inability to hold on to a job, perhaps due to not being able to perceive or comprehend office politics. Or an inablilty to process more than three steps of a task at a time. I think much of the high American divorce rate can be attributed to undiagnosed ASDs. What appears to an NT spouse as inconsideration may be an aspies incomprehension of the shades of gray of a relationship.
The question then becomes, would being diagnosed now as adults make a difference to these people? I know Paul agrees he's somewhere on the spectrum, most likely what sriked me as the scariest condition on the spectrum, Oppositional Defiance Disorder, but he has no interest in getting evaluated. He took repsonsibility for himself, and came up with self-discipline methods that work for him, when he was about 17. Oh, he still slips and it affected our marriage constantly, especially before we ever heard of AS and ASDs. And at 38 years old he is still a Ph.D. candidate without a full time job.
Ah...IMO, there's the rub. Many American parents trust Western medicine too much, IMO. Pediatricians, psychiatrist, psychologist rarely recommend a nutritional approach.Plissken wrote:and how many of them would benefit from nutritional supplements instead of drugs?
Please don't misunderstand me. Beorn's AS is not 'brougt under control' from the supplementation. But his uncontrolled stims, such as pacing and hand flapping during times of thought processing or excitement, practically stops when he is given pretty high doses of EFAs in the form of Fish Oil, Flax Seed Oil, and Borage Seed Oil gelcaps on a consistant basis. He also benefits from an increase in B6.Plissken wrote:(And just how is a "psychological" disorder brought under control by vitamins, anyway?
Much of this is attributed to 'leaky gut syndrome,' which is not widely accepted as a condition here in the States. But I experimented with the supplements base don what I read, and it appears to help Beorn.
Again, I know many caring, supportive, interested parents on the AOL message board I mentioned who do medicate for co-morbid conditions. They have chosen to trust traditional Western medicine techniques, instead of seeking out alternatives. It is their choice. I can post to them until my fingers bleed (computer equivalent of 'blue in the face?') about the effectiveness of the nutritional supplements for Beorn, and they will discard it because of their doctors have not suggested it. This does not mean they are uncaring, IMO.Plissken wrote:Sounds to me like maybe a good many of these kids just need parents like Menolly - ones who have the time and interest to actually figure out what their individual child needs.)
Caring? I didn't mean to say that these parents didn't care. But caring is just the first step. These drugs haven't even been tested for long-term effects on children, to say nothing of the questions on creativity that your husband's story brings up. I would think that there would be many other steps between caring and accepting the word of a Doctor who can't even answer questions along these lines - and I think that you and Paul are taking the right ones.
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- SoulQuest1970
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Menolly, I can relate to the Aspergers. My ex husband has it and I worked with a boy in the schools with it. Also a friend of mine has a son that has it. They do have a lot of problems socially. You are right about the comorbities. My ex has just about all of them including suicidal tendancies. These are the kiddos I put in the rare category. Even then, most of them if caught young can learn to function well. Now that I think about it, I wouldn't mind if my ex got some shocks. hehe
Pliss... The disorder was named in the 1940s... I speak of ADD/ADHD. It is not new, nor has ever been new. It was always there. Albert Einstien was one, Thomas Edison, etc. Most of the famous inventors of all time were ADHD. What bugs me is we as a society refer to it as a "disorder" when it is really just a different way the brain is wired. Most of the time it is accompanied by a high IQ, unless it is due to brain damage. There is a wonderful book written in the late 18th, maybe exactly 1900 call "Cosmic Consciousness." It describes ADHD without that label. It is only a "disorder" when a child is put into a classroom and has to conform to a set way of learning. If I were in an ideal world I would be homeschooling my bright ADD kids, but I am not in a perfect world. School is great, but not for all kids. I am sure you know (or were) the kid who could who could "do so much better" or spaces out daydreaming or is a class clown. There are 3 types of ADD. First is the dynamo... the person who can't seem to sit still and is in perpetual motion. Then there is the inventor who can't quit coming up with ideas of things to do (like take mom's radio apart). Then you have the dreamer. That is pretty self explanatory. Many people with ADHD had 1 more of these traits mixed in. Alex is my inventor, Calli is my dreamer and Nick is the dynamo. I am a dreamer/inventor. There is evidence that ADD is on the rise due to advanced technology, kids educational programs, etc. Kids are absorbing more at younger ages at faster rates. Thier brains are being wired more and more. Also, there has been found to be a genetic component. If someone in your family is ADD you are more likely to have it. Also, it tends to run more on the mother's side. ADD doesn't "run" in my family... or my ex's... it gallops!
Pliss... The disorder was named in the 1940s... I speak of ADD/ADHD. It is not new, nor has ever been new. It was always there. Albert Einstien was one, Thomas Edison, etc. Most of the famous inventors of all time were ADHD. What bugs me is we as a society refer to it as a "disorder" when it is really just a different way the brain is wired. Most of the time it is accompanied by a high IQ, unless it is due to brain damage. There is a wonderful book written in the late 18th, maybe exactly 1900 call "Cosmic Consciousness." It describes ADHD without that label. It is only a "disorder" when a child is put into a classroom and has to conform to a set way of learning. If I were in an ideal world I would be homeschooling my bright ADD kids, but I am not in a perfect world. School is great, but not for all kids. I am sure you know (or were) the kid who could who could "do so much better" or spaces out daydreaming or is a class clown. There are 3 types of ADD. First is the dynamo... the person who can't seem to sit still and is in perpetual motion. Then there is the inventor who can't quit coming up with ideas of things to do (like take mom's radio apart). Then you have the dreamer. That is pretty self explanatory. Many people with ADHD had 1 more of these traits mixed in. Alex is my inventor, Calli is my dreamer and Nick is the dynamo. I am a dreamer/inventor. There is evidence that ADD is on the rise due to advanced technology, kids educational programs, etc. Kids are absorbing more at younger ages at faster rates. Thier brains are being wired more and more. Also, there has been found to be a genetic component. If someone in your family is ADD you are more likely to have it. Also, it tends to run more on the mother's side. ADD doesn't "run" in my family... or my ex's... it gallops!
If women were in charge, the military would have to do bake sales in order to buy more weapons.
"You can always procrastinate later."
-me
"I'm not fat. I'm FLUFFY!"
- Garfield
"We live we love
We forgive and never give up
Cuz the days we are given are gifts from above
Today we remember to live and to love"
-"We Live"
by Superchick
"You can always procrastinate later."
-me
"I'm not fat. I'm FLUFFY!"
- Garfield
"We live we love
We forgive and never give up
Cuz the days we are given are gifts from above
Today we remember to live and to love"
-"We Live"
by Superchick
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According to the initial post the child previously had 5000 violent episodes per week.
Two possibilities explain those 5000 violent episodes a week.
1. He is able to control these episodes. They are voluntary and made under the belief that the inconvenience of his punishments is bearable when compared with the pleasure of the attention and stimulation he gains from his actions. Essentially he is accepting the "bargain" as offered by society. He does the crime, and does the time.
2. He is compelled to these actions, they are not voluntary. The time is a suffficient deterrent to these actions, except that he is incapable of being detered.
Essentially the use of the GED is an increase in the penalty for his actions. Under this penalty his outbursts decrease from 5k to zero.
Thus, he has voluntary control his "episodes". Under the threat of punishment he is able to cease to experience them. He is not a victim of uncontrollable urges, he is a sane individual able to pick his pleasures.
The child has learned to subordinate his wishes (violent action during class) to the wishes of his parents and teachers(subdued silence and participation during class). The reason that he has learned this lesson is that they have driven home that they have the power to harm him.
Ideally he would comply with the rules when they conflicted with his desires because he valued the good of the majority over his own. Sadly that is a rare condition for humans. Under the influence of the GED he has shifted from the moral condition of the career criminal (habitually act against the will of authority and accept punishment: steal, con, rape, etc.) to the moral condition of the average citizen (act against the will of authority only insofar as the punishment is bearable: speed but not assault)
The mother seems to have achieved the result she desired when she sent her child to a reform school and signed paperwork allowing him to be shocked. I have no objections to this process, it differs only in degree from that which we all experienced in public schools, and I believe that that difference in degree is excused by his greater-than-average propensity for violent outbursts. (If you act violently 5k times per week I can understand the exasperation of the educators)
My approval would not have been forthcoming in the case that premise 2 turned out to be correct. If his outbursts were involuntary it would be necessary to restrain him, but causing him pain would no longer have any purpose.
Two possibilities explain those 5000 violent episodes a week.
1. He is able to control these episodes. They are voluntary and made under the belief that the inconvenience of his punishments is bearable when compared with the pleasure of the attention and stimulation he gains from his actions. Essentially he is accepting the "bargain" as offered by society. He does the crime, and does the time.
2. He is compelled to these actions, they are not voluntary. The time is a suffficient deterrent to these actions, except that he is incapable of being detered.
Essentially the use of the GED is an increase in the penalty for his actions. Under this penalty his outbursts decrease from 5k to zero.
Thus, he has voluntary control his "episodes". Under the threat of punishment he is able to cease to experience them. He is not a victim of uncontrollable urges, he is a sane individual able to pick his pleasures.
The child has learned to subordinate his wishes (violent action during class) to the wishes of his parents and teachers(subdued silence and participation during class). The reason that he has learned this lesson is that they have driven home that they have the power to harm him.
Ideally he would comply with the rules when they conflicted with his desires because he valued the good of the majority over his own. Sadly that is a rare condition for humans. Under the influence of the GED he has shifted from the moral condition of the career criminal (habitually act against the will of authority and accept punishment: steal, con, rape, etc.) to the moral condition of the average citizen (act against the will of authority only insofar as the punishment is bearable: speed but not assault)
The mother seems to have achieved the result she desired when she sent her child to a reform school and signed paperwork allowing him to be shocked. I have no objections to this process, it differs only in degree from that which we all experienced in public schools, and I believe that that difference in degree is excused by his greater-than-average propensity for violent outbursts. (If you act violently 5k times per week I can understand the exasperation of the educators)
My approval would not have been forthcoming in the case that premise 2 turned out to be correct. If his outbursts were involuntary it would be necessary to restrain him, but causing him pain would no longer have any purpose.
Wait, wait, wait. This "disorder" is a part of what allows some genius to exist, and we're drugging kids out of it, because they don't do well in generic, socialized learning environments?SoulQuest1970 wrote: Pliss... The disorder was named in the 1940s... I speak of ADD/ADHD. It is not new, nor has ever been new. It was always there. Albert Einstien was one, Thomas Edison, etc. Most of the famous inventors of all time were ADHD. What bugs me is we as a society refer to it as a "disorder" when it is really just a different way the brain is wired. Most of the time it is accompanied by a high IQ, unless it is due to brain damage. There is a wonderful book written in the late 18th, maybe exactly 1900 call "Cosmic Consciousness." It describes ADHD without that label. It is only a "disorder" when a child is put into a classroom and has to conform to a set way of learning. If I were in an ideal world I would be homeschooling my bright ADD kids, but I am not in a perfect world. School is great, but not for all kids. I am sure you know (or were) the kid who could who could "do so much better" or spaces out daydreaming or is a class clown. There are 3 types of ADD. First is the dynamo... the person who can't seem to sit still and is in perpetual motion. Then there is the inventor who can't quit coming up with ideas of things to do (like take mom's radio apart). Then you have the dreamer. That is pretty self explanatory. Many people with ADHD had 1 more of these traits mixed in. Alex is my inventor, Calli is my dreamer and Nick is the dynamo. I am a dreamer/inventor. There is evidence that ADD is on the rise due to advanced technology, kids educational programs, etc. Kids are absorbing more at younger ages at faster rates. Thier brains are being wired more and more. Also, there has been found to be a genetic component. If someone in your family is ADD you are more likely to have it. Also, it tends to run more on the mother's side. ADD doesn't "run" in my family... or my ex's... it gallops!
That is, in so many ways, just plain fucked up!
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It all depends on who you talk to. The same people are cited as being 'famous aspies' as well.Plissken wrote:Wait, wait, wait. This "disorder" is a part of what allows some genius to exist, and we're drugging kids out of it, because they don't do well in generic, socialized learning environments?
That is, in so many ways, just plain fucked up!
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Hey wow, a new member. And making his second post in the 'Tank. Welcome PannionDude to the Watch. Be welcome indeed.
And an excellent post among many others excellent ones in this topic.
I think you make an accurate assessment of the situation in this case...and I think you mirror my approach neatly. If it's involuntary, then shocks are needless, even cruel.
If it is voluntary though, and if it's no different from spanking the kid, then why is spanking such a big deal? You can't spank your kid but you can shock him?
If it's voluntary, as evidenced by the fact that the outbursts didn't just diminsih, but stopped, then in principle it's no different from any other reward/punishment system, although we may dispute the matter of acceptable degree.
However, Menolly's point about the conditioned reaction without affecting the underlying psychology is a valid one I think.
You hint at it yourself in fact.
--A
And an excellent post among many others excellent ones in this topic.
I think you make an accurate assessment of the situation in this case...and I think you mirror my approach neatly. If it's involuntary, then shocks are needless, even cruel.
If it is voluntary though, and if it's no different from spanking the kid, then why is spanking such a big deal? You can't spank your kid but you can shock him?
If it's voluntary, as evidenced by the fact that the outbursts didn't just diminsih, but stopped, then in principle it's no different from any other reward/punishment system, although we may dispute the matter of acceptable degree.
However, Menolly's point about the conditioned reaction without affecting the underlying psychology is a valid one I think.
You hint at it yourself in fact.
The "moral condition" is being underscored by the ability and predisposition of others to inflict harm on him. Once that ability is no longer a factor, will the conditioning hold?Ideally he would comply with the rules when they conflicted with his desires because he valued the good of the majority over his own. Sadly that is a rare condition for humans. Under the influence of the GED he has shifted from the moral condition of the career criminal (habitually act against the will of authority and accept punishment: steal, con, rape, etc.) to the moral condition of the average citizen (act against the will of authority only insofar as the punishment is bearable: speed but not assault)
--A
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Uh... I didn't say we were drugging geniuses out of being them. My kids and I take medication, albiet low doses, and all it does it help what is already there to function more effectively. It doesn't help if you can't complete a task. A great many very bright people with ADHD accomplish almost nothing because they cannot focus long enough. The problem is honestly ADHD is way overdiagnosed and when it is it is way overmedicated. Some medication can be a good thing if the ADHD is severe enough to keep you from functioning well. Not everyone with ADHD needs medication and when it is needed, sometimes a little goes a long way. All you need it just enough to function.
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"You can always procrastinate later."
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"I'm not fat. I'm FLUFFY!"
- Garfield
"We live we love
We forgive and never give up
Cuz the days we are given are gifts from above
Today we remember to live and to love"
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by Superchick