Un-b-effin'-lievable!

[Marv]

You've never blacked out? Every couple of years I'll go on a real bender and lose a couple of hours. Serious drinkers are looking for that effect.

No. Maybe it has something to do with the speed you drink at or something.

Anyway, if we're talking culpability, don't you make provision for that in your law-Ist degree and 2nd degree? Manslaughter?

[Cail]

I'm a beer drinker. I'll go for the duration, but not for speed. Never had an issue with it drinking beer. Problem is, you start giving me mixed drinks, I drink them like beer (one every 15-20 minutes or so), and then things start getting ugly.

Yes, we do make that distinction in the case of committing a crime while under the influence. The person is still responsible for the crime, though usually at a lesser sentence (kill someone while driving drunk, worst you'll get is vehicular manslaughter).

[sindatur]

What kind of booze do you guys over there drink!?

I have NEVER been drunk enough to believe that something like murder might the right thing to do. I might not have the same control over my base emotions that I would normally but I can still decipher between right and wrong....unless I'm passed out...at which point it's sort of moot.

That's exactly it Marvin. When you pass out mentally, but, are still walking around with your eyes open. I personally don't recall ever not remembering periods of time, but, I know I have tried to reason with people who were blacked out, and it's been impossible, and the next day, they have not only not remembered the events, but, didn't even believe they occurred. Or have no idea how they ended up somewhere or in some condition. We've got this one friend who isn't even allowed over anymore, because after 6 beers, her eyes roll into the back of her head, and she becomes a complete nightmare. One time, she took a loaf of bread (still in the plastic wrapper), put cheese on top of it, and stuff it in the microwave. She could've burned our house down, we had to replace the microwave, and could get rid of the smell for about 2 weeks.

[Cail]

Buddy of mine is the same way. Greatest guy in the world until you pump the magic amount of booze into him. Then he commandeers the stereo and starts playing torch songs while ccrying at the top of his lungs about his high school sweetheart (he's in his early 40s now). For the longest time he thought I was full of it when I tried to explain it to him. So I whipped out the camcorder one night.....He was utterly mortified when I showed him the tape.

'Course, that was the same night I dislocated my shoulder jumping off a balcony into a pool, so what do I know....

[Plissken]

I had thought that this thread had gotten off-topic - until I re-read it's title!

[Chassit]

They chose to drink, or do drugs? They didn't choose to be insane?

Not according to the medical community or AA. An alcoholic (or addict) is by definition out of control.

IMO, that is so much B.S.! I really believe it's crap. They tell them the same thing at Gamblers Anonymous. It's a behavior! I'm sure cancer patients feel great being put right in there with alcoholics and druggies.

[Chassit]

after they chose to aquire the disease, maybe? Listen, I'm with you on the disease part, I suffer myself from it, but didn't I choose to take that hit? drink that drink? I didn't want to be an alcoholic, or a drug addict, but didn't I really choose to be one, in the beginning? I'm saying this as those who don't agree with you, not as myself, because I'm not sure what I feel right now....you may have a point....

As a recovering compulsive gambler myself, I think you raise some good questions, Esmer. Yes, you and I both chose, and to some degree you continue to choose, even though it's difficult to quit the addiction.

[Lord Mhoram]

My mom is an addiction counselor and will tell you that she firmly believes alcoholism is a disease.

[Chassit]

My mom is an addiction counselor and will tell you that she firmly believes alcoholism is a disease.

I respectfully disagree with your mom, based on these questions: Can cancer patients quit having cancer? Can diabetics stop being diabetic? Is Parkinson's reversible? And.. can an alcoholic quit drinking?

I'm assuming alcoholism as a disease involves the act of drinking alcohol when I ask these questions.

[Lord Mhoram]

*shrug* Speaking for her, she'd tell you that alcoholics have a chemical and genetic disposition towards drinking. And also, does the desire to drink ever really completely go away? (I honestly don't know, for obvious reasons.)

[Cail]

My mother was an addictions counselor as well, and she'd say the same thing.

I think it's a bunch of hooey.

[sindatur]

While I agree alcoholism isn't a disease, not all diseases are incurable, Cancer does sometimes go away with treatment. And, an alcoholic can quit drinking, but it's more difficult to not be an alcoholic (IE: If an alcoholic quits drinking, and has a drink in the future, they will often fall back into their out of control patterns)

[Cail]

Meh, I said my peace on that here... kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8028

[Avatar]

It's one of those things that are different for everybody. Like Esmer said, at some point you make the choice. If it's a disease of any kind, (which I still dispute), it's one that you can choose not to activate, feed or generate.

A genetic predisposition? Absolutely. I'll go with that any day of the week. But a predisposition doesn't mean you have to be an addict.

Having a genetic predisposition to cancer doesn't mean you already have the disease.

Now if anybody knows about genetic predisposition, it's me. As some of you know, my father is an alcoholic. My brother followed in his footsteps, and is a heroin addict. Me? I continue to drink and do recreational drugs with no ill effects.

But I can see that predisposition in myself incredibly clearly. If you doubt me, look at my post count. Or check the Games forum to find out how hooked I get on the PC.

And yeah, I've felt it when it comes to substances. Nearly 10 years ago, I realised that if I didn't stop doing coke right then, I might not be able to, and after realising that, it was 5 years before I even did a single recreational line. (Whereupon I discovered that, although I still liked it, I would never go through the mission and expense of doing it. If somebody offers me a line, fine, otherwise, I can easily live without it.)

Actually, there's my own little blessing/quirk when it comes to these things...if I don't have it, I don't miss it.

(Only ever blacked out once in my life, and that was a combination of things. I'd taken a few trips the night before, and if you drink on acid, alcohol doesn't seem to have any effect. Then I followed the trips the next morning, (not having slept obviously) with about a bottle's worth of vodka, with orange juice, for breakfast, then we headed out to a friends plot (like small land-holding?) in the bush, where there was a bottle of rum for lunch, first mixed, then neat.

The problem with drinking on acid though is when the acid wears off, the alcohol hits you like a ton of bricks. The last thing I remember is talking somewhat incoherently about the Kabbalah, then I woke up 4 hours later and 100kms away in my friends driveway. Nasty.)

--A

[Esmer]

And.. can an alcoholic quit drinking?

He can quit drinking, but can't stop being an alcoholic....that makes it a critical distinction, but it really doesn't mean anything, heh...

A genetic predisposition? Absolutely. I'll go with that any day of the week. But a predisposition doesn't mean you have to be an addict.

definitely more accurate description....i'll say that too.....but it does mean, unequivocably, that if you do do it, you are an addict, and if you don't, you still can be...a dormant genetic disorder maybe? Like a psychosis triggered by a specific influence or event? Or inability or a propensity in any given area due to a genetic misconfiguration, re: the brain or body?


.....and for some reason, Cail, I see you telling a Tourette's sufferer to shut the hell up.....

[Avatar]

.....but it does mean, unequivocably, that if you do do it, you are an addict, and if you don't, you still can be...a dormant genetic disorder maybe? Like a psychosis triggered by a specific influence or event? Or inability or a propensity in any given area due to a genetic misconfiguration, re: the brain or body?

Not unequivocally. Otherwise I'd be a real junkie, not just a pseudo one.

However, it is possible that the influence, (taking a drug) can trigger it as a psychosis I think. But it's not inevitable.

--A

[Chassit]

And.. can an alcoholic quit drinking?

He can quit drinking, but can't stop being an alcoholic....that makes it a critical distinction, but it really doesn't mean anything, heh...

That should only be a problem, though, if he begins drinking again. I'm a compulsive online gambler (technically), but if I haven't done it for 3 years, it's no longer a problem, right? Whereas the cancer patient always has cancer, and the person with heart disease can't decide not to have it anymore.

[Cole]

Edit

[finn]

Many Neuroscientists, Developmentalists, and Social Psychologists tell me that alcoholism is a disease.

To them I say this...how come I never hear of babies catching it!?

I mean come on, even the smallest tot can catch every disease I've ever heard of.

I'm Stephen Colbert.

And what do they say Stephen, I'd be interested to hear the views of people who generally score in the top 2% of the population for intelligence. Maybe that you limit your definition of disease to the biological? Disease can also be a "condition", one which tots will have no contact with until their cognitive abilities develop to ......................................well, at least past the Colbert stage.

[Avatar]

Personally, I tend to consider disease as a biological term.

Condition, I'll accept as a psychological term.

All comes down to definitioin again, huh?

--A