Society's going to hell

[Marv]

This might sound really redundant but last time i checked sex is just about the best way to pass time while on this planet. Why arbitrarilly decide that you have to wait until you are of a certain age to enjoy the experience? As long as it's consensual and safe I think you just have to let kids come to their own conclusions.

Consensual and Safe are the two biggest factors in the "arbitrary" age limit. Young bodies are unprepared to cope with sex, just as young minds are unprepared for the emotions that come along with it.

Think about it: If you're still capable of being moved to tears at the loss of a favorite toy, or being placed on restriction, you just might not have lived long enough for the emotional baggage that comes along with having sex.

It just seems an extremely self-indulgent law. We act as if it's to protect the kids but it seems to me that it's just there to cover for our inadequacies as parents. I think that people are so messed up when it comes to sex because of the conotations we attribute to it from such a young age.

[Plissken]

This might sound really redundant but last time i checked sex is just about the best way to pass time while on this planet. Why arbitrarilly decide that you have to wait until you are of a certain age to enjoy the experience? As long as it's consensual and safe I think you just have to let kids come to their own conclusions.

Consensual and Safe are the two biggest factors in the "arbitrary" age limit. Young bodies are unprepared to cope with sex, just as young minds are unprepared for the emotions that come along with it.

Think about it: If you're still capable of being moved to tears at the loss of a favorite toy, or being placed on restriction, you just might not have lived long enough for the emotional baggage that comes along with having sex.

It just seems an extremely self-indulgent law. We act as if it's to protect the kids but it seems to me that it's just there to cover for our inadequacies as parents. I think that people are so messed up when it comes to sex because of the conotations we attribute to it from such a young age.

I'm not talking about shame. I'm talking about, at the very least, vulnerability. I agree that parents should be able to lay out the consequences and risks of sex for their children, but at the end of the day, these laws exist to protect children from adults - not other children.

Frankly, as my daughter begins to pull away from her parents influence and begins learning to define herself on her own terms, I'm just fine with an "arbitrary" law that says that second-year Seniors and first-year college boys can't get at her without legal repercussions.

[SoulQuest1970]

This topic interests me because it has recently become an object of discussion at home with Alex. We were watching "House" this weekend on dvd and we saw the episode where the 12 year old was pregnant. Alex was not shocked, but she wanted to talk about it. She felt the girl made a very bad choice and insisted she was going to wait until she was married. We talked about sometimes marriages not lasting forever (since mine didn't). She asked me if I thought her marriage would last. I told her I would hope so, but it would depend on many things. I told her that if she waits and gets to know him first and not fall in love to escape or because her friends are getting married, but because they are both very much in love, then it has a much better chance of lasting. She seems very worried about that. I still joke with her that I am going to have to get myself a big stick to wave at the boys as she gets older lol. She swears up and down that the most she would do is kiss a boy. I also told her that she might find this harder as she gets older because there is a lot of pressure and hormones that kick in as she gets older. Harder, but not impossible. I even told her she may not even decide to wait until she is married, but that she should at least wait until she is emotionally ready to accept the possibility of becoming a mother. She still swears she will be married first. Interesting. I guess I am doing something right and my divorce has not jaded her views on marriage and love. I did tell her that if she should cave in and have sex despite her best intentions, that she can always come to me and I will still love her.

[Avatar]

A big stick? Hah. What you'll need is a shotgun.

See, there's the important thing right there in your post SoulQuest. Your daughter can recognise bad choices, and that is the only way for anybody to have a hope of making the good ones.

Although I can see the sense of what Marvin is saying, don't you think that, as Pliss describes, it does protect the kids to a certain extent?

Maybe it's because you have a son Tazz.

--A

[Spring]

12-year-olds would not be ready to raise a child, should the unthinkable happen and they fall pregnant at a young age. Heck, I'm sure there are a lot of 20-something year-olds who aren't ready mentally and emotionally to raise a child, a human being.

[Avatar]

Absolutely agree.

--A

[variol son]

Consensual and Safe are the two biggest factors in the "arbitrary" age limit. Young bodies are unprepared to cope with sex, just as young minds are unprepared for the emotions that come along with it.

Think about it: If you're still capable of being moved to tears at the loss of a favorite toy, or being placed on restriction, you just might not have lived long enough for the emotional baggage that comes along with having sex.

It just seems an extremely self-indulgent law. We act as if it's to protect the kids but it seems to me that it's just there to cover for our inadequacies as parents. I think that people are so messed up when it comes to sex because of the conotations we attribute to it from such a young age.

I'm not talking about shame. I'm talking about, at the very least, vulnerability. I agree that parents should be able to lay out the consequences and risks of sex for their children, but at the end of the day, these laws exist to protect children from adults - not other children.

Frankly, as my daughter begins to pull away from her parents influence and begins learning to define herself on her own terms, I'm just fine with an "arbitrary" law that says that second-year Seniors and first-year college boys can't get at her without legal repercussions.

Well said Plissken.

A close friend of mine has a 15 year old daughter who knows a lot about sex, and not from personal experience. Her father has been open and honest with her about it - answering any of her questions without trying to make sex seem dirty or mysterious at all. Ali is one of the most mature young people I know - including many I go to university with. However, it still gladdens me that until she is 16 the law will protect her from adult men who haven't been raised as her brother has.

[SoulQuest1970]

Marvin does have a good point. Sex is nothing dirty or something to be ashamed of. I teach my kids that it is a beautiful and wonderful thing, but CAN result in babies no matter how safe you are. The only 100% in avoiding pregnancy is abstinance. I have been only with 1.5 guys. I say .5 because it never progressed because for me there just was no there... there. If ya know what I mean. For me, it is a matter of trust. I absolutely will not have sex unless I love and trust the other person (not to be confused with a must be married thing). My kids are raised with this example. I do not date a ton of men and those I do date I do not introduce to the kids unless they become a friend even if they do not become a romantic interest... and even then only if they have kids that my kids enjoy playing with. For me sex and love are the same thing. Both are very important, but I can not separate the two as some people can. I do enjoy it very much. In 7 years of marriage, 3 of which I was on birth control, I had 3 kids and 2 miscarriages. Some of my friends can separate love and sex, but they end up with a lot of regrets and tell me they wish they were more like me. I have the patience to know I will not be alone forever. I do not judge my friends for having men numbers is the double digits. That life is simply not for me and I hope will not be for my kids, but again that is thier choice as adults. I will not judge them either.

[duchess of malfi]

I did tell her that if she should cave in and have sex despite her best intentions, that she can always come to me and I will still love her.

That is the key to making any relationship work right there.

The day we registered my older son for high school for the first time his schedule was all messed up. So we went to the counselling office.

There was this lady there with her son, a senior (17 or 18), and his girlfriend, a junior (16 or 17). She was pregnant, and had been thrown out of the house by her parents. I still cannot get over that.

The mother of the boyfriend took in the girl, and had even gone to court and gotten legal custody of her (since her parents did not want to have anything to do with her or her innocent baby).

The mother, the kids, and the school district were doing everything in theit power to make sure that the girl would be able to finish school on time with her class. They were figuring out how she could finish her classes that year, considering the maternity leave.

They were planning on the boy's mother to help with the baby so the kids could be in school, as she was home due to a medical retirement.

I have never forgotten how much love was being shown to that girl, and how many people were determined that she could still go on and have an education and a good start in adult life - and how much concern was being shown for the baby as well -- except by her very own parents who threw a pregnant 16 year old out to live on the street as far as they knew or cared.

I just cannot figure out what those "parents" were thinking. And I am not sure that I want to.

[SoulQuest1970]

You are so right, Duchess! When Alex and I were talking we did come across this as well. Parents are SUPPOSED to love thier children unconditionally. That means that no MATTER what they do even if it is a mistake or we disagree with thier choice, we still love them! I honestly cannot think of one thing my kids could do that would make me stop loving them. If they commit a terrible crime, they should experience the consequences of thier actions, but I will still love them. If they should get pregnant, or Nick get a girl pregnant, I will make sure they learn to care for thier baby so they can grow into a wonderful parent, finish school, etc. I will let them live at home until they are stable and ready to go out on thier own. When I chose to be a parent, I did not sign up for 18 or so years. I signed up for forever. If Nick did get a girl pregnant and if her parents were to throw her out, I would take her in as well. That would still be my grandchild. A child should not have to pay for thier parents mistakes.

One of my cousins got pregnant and had her baby between her Junior and Senior year. My Aunt and Uncle were good about it and she and her baby lived with them. The baby's father and parents were very active in thier roles. The boy's parents took care of the baby while she was at school. My cousin was able to go on to college and is now an accountant. My parents were very different. I was 24 and married when I got pregnant, but I had no help to go to college before hand and I married to escape home. My parents (meaning my mom) philosophy is "you make you bed, you lie in it." Therefore, I have not finished college and have been a welfare mom. My Aunt and my dad... same parents, same sweet nature except they were raised in a matriarchal home and dad let my mom handle everything regarding us. My mom does not love unconditionally. I was touched a couple of days ago because dad had just found out that mom left me alone and sick with high fevers as young as 9 so she could go to work, or church, etc. He never knew it went on and apologized for not paying enough attention while we were growing up. That meant something to me. I figured he always knew, but didn't care. I am glad to know I was wrong.

[Baradakas]

Spring wrote:

12-year-olds would not be ready to raise a child, should the unthinkable happen and they fall pregnant at a young age. Heck, I'm sure there are a lot of 20-something year-olds who aren't ready mentally and emotionally to raise a child, a human being

Well said, and agreed. Hell, I'm 28 and I still don't know if I'll be ready when/if the time comes.

-B

[Avatar]

I hear that.

And SoulQuest, there's only one thing that can really be said about your posts.

Good for you.

--A

[Chassit]

Wow.... this is a firey topic. I am seeing a whole lot of sad stuff here. I came from a family where people stay together despite the ups and downs of life. I would have kept my husband despite his problems, but he chose to leave because he knew he was holding me back and hurting the kids with his depression, etc. My parents have been married 44 years. My mom is the ONLY woman he even dated. He has never had an affair and despite mom's Alzhiemers he sticks right beside her. His life is not easy. His parents stayed together until his dad died at 59 years old of a heart attack. I have 1 aunt that got a divorce on my mom's side and it was a huge deal. I never had sex until I was engaged at 24 years old. Parents are the problem. Kids are allowed to grow up way too fast. In fact they are ENCOURAGED to grow up too fast. My oldest is 11 and she has no plans to have sex at all until she is an adult... she emphantically states after she finishes college. Part of that may have to do with her being present for her brother's birth. That is a great way to teach kiddos what sex and do to you lol. My kids only watch PBS, Animal Planet, Disney and Nickelodian. I keep up with thier favorite shows and make sure the content is appropriate. When Alex has come in and seen something while I am watching SVU, I take the time to explain it to her. She will come right out with what she sees that is not ok... like she loves to watch "House" with me and inappropriate things she points out before I can point it out to her. I've trained her well. We do NOT watch MTV. Brittany Spears is frowned on in our house. I'm sorry, but "I'm not that innocent"?! You better be! I do not buy thier clothes at Wal Mart because they sell shorts that are WAY too short. They have some stuff that is ok, but a lot of it is way too grown up for a little girl. Target tends to sell more modest clothes so I shop there. Parents simply need to pay better attention to thier kids. Our society says both parents need to work (and in some cases they do need to in order to survive... another can of worms you don't want me to rant on)... many are single parents like me (again... let's not go there). Even me, a single mom, can find the time to teach my kids right from wrong, how to enjoy being a kid while you are one (I had to grow up so I could be one ). I do not care how busy parents are, thier kids are thier greatest investment for the furture of the world so they need to put thier priorities in order, wake up and pay attention. As for fidelity, I never cheated, I will never cheat. Does cheating affect the other person even if they don't know about it? YES! If the cheater is stupid enough to get an STD then it most definitely impacts thier spouse. So it is ALWAYS wrong.

Wow! Except for being married or single, you and I could almost be the same person.

Great points!

(I've found, BTW, that just being honest with your kids is the key. I've never hidden much from them, or used cutesie names for their body parts. We, too, monitor their shows, and we discuss things that are inappropriate on TV. I try not to hide things from them because that creates distrust. So far, so good.)

man. 18 years is a long time. i oughta know. i'm closing in on 19 myself.

Whew! 12 for me; 16 altogether.

sheesh. its unconventional. or at least it doesn't follow the conventions i was TAUGHT. but i can't imagine him not there. THAT would be weird.

Same here.

we've split a thousand times in a thousand ways. we have diverged so much from what we were that i'm sure who we are today wouldn't take a second look at each other.

Us too. I think if we met today, we wouldn't get married. Yet we're happy we are. Weird.

at this point, there's not much that could screw up my marriage...adultry included.

I think that's true for us also... I hope I don't ever find out, though!

A commitment such as this requires two, and you cannot be expected to carry both ends. At that point the only question should be, "do I love him/her enough to keep trying with them", in other words, if he/she opened her eyes immediately and tried to make it work, can I forgive them and try to rebuild what was lost? In my case, the answer was forgone. No, I did not love her enough to go through all that again. Not that my integrity was to be questioned, but that she had already decided that it was preferable to live in hate with me, then start over and try to fix anything.

Yikes, sorry bout the rant folks.

I have to agree. I think there comes a point when you either try together (counseling) or you realize you've failed to make it work together and end it. No, one person can't hold it together. That's not marriage or a partnership anymore.

Anyone who tells you, "you made a commitment, now you have to stick with it" has already failed to understand

Won't somebody PLEASE think of the children

This may surprise some coming from me, but if one of the partners isn't giving anymore to the relationship, that can hurt the children more than divorce (like abuse, cheating, drinking, neglect and so on).

I realize you were being tongue-in-cheek, though.

The parents are by far the primary arbiters of the acceptable. Media may make children want to dress/behave/whatever like that, but it's parents who allow or disallow it.

And an equally valid point about male "role model" celebraties Vs, not to mention my total agreement that sometimes seperation/divorce/whatever is what's best for the children.

I have to agree with all of that.

Why arbitrarilly decide that you have to wait until you are of a certain age to enjoy the experience? As long as it's consensual and safe I think you just have to let kids come to their own conclusions.

**crosses Marvin off potential babysitter list**

She asked me if I thought her marriage would last. I told her I would hope so, but it would depend on many things. I told her that if she waits and gets to know him first and not fall in love to escape or because her friends are getting married, but because they are both very much in love, then it has a much better chance of lasting. She seems very worried about that.

What a cool relationship you have with your daughter. I hope my daughter and I will have that kind of closeness (right now, it's my son and I who talk about things like that... he's 10).

The one thing that caught my attention was the "very much in love" part. While I agree with you about that, I do think love is overrated. Don't get me wrong-- without love, what is a marriage? It's just that a lot of times, kids are under the impression that being "in love" must always be so when you're married, and when they find out it isn't true-- that there are times you don't even like the other person, much less love them-- they become disillusioned and think divorce is the only option. I think commitment can pull people through when love doesn't, and then love returns to the relationship where the people are committed to each other. But it's like the soap operas, where all you hear is "we're in love" as a reason for damn near everything. The other one is "and we can't help it". But that's another thread.

quote="Spring"]12-year-olds would not be ready to raise a child, should the unthinkable happen and they fall pregnant at a young age. Heck, I'm sure there are a lot of 20-something year-olds who aren't ready mentally and emotionally to raise a child, a human being.

You're 14, Spring? I am impressed. You'll do fine.

[Avatar]

I see you've got the hang of it.

--A

[Chassit]

I see you've got the hang of it.

--A

I could go back to lots of me's in a row if you like... it feeds my ego.

[lucimay]

I see you've got the hang of it.

--A

I could go back to lots of me's in a row if you like... it feeds my ego.

[Avatar]

I see you've got the hang of it.

--A

I could go back to lots of me's in a row if you like... it feeds my ego.

That's all right thanks. This way is so much easier to read.

--A

[Chassit]

I see you've got the hang of it.

--A

I could go back to lots of me's in a row if you like... it feeds my ego.

That's all right thanks. This way is so much easier to read.

--A

Well, I realize that. But really, which is more important: seeing me over and over again in all my glory, or just reading one post in which my creativity is sadly squashed? **sob, sob**

By the way, in all seriousness, what confused me at first was the term "double-post". I've been on other boards where that simply meant you had posted the same thing twice; then the mod had to go in and delete one, which was a pain. If you see another newbie do this, you might explain that to him/her, too, to avoid confusion of terms.

[Avatar]

Thanks, I'll keep it in mind.

Now, do you think that society is going to hell?

--A

[Chassit]

Thanks, I'll keep it in mind.

Now, do you think that society is going to hell?

--A

Hell yes!

Well... yeah. Literally? No, I don't. I don't believe in Hell, as in the place your soul goes because you didn't believe in God exactly the "right" way in your flicker of existence here on Earth. (However, I respect those who do believe in Hell, like my husband... I just don't believe it myself.)

I think society was once too conservative (puritan), and now I think it's too liberal (chaotic). I think it'll get worse before it gets better. I hope eventually that the pendulum will start to swing back the other way-- or, maybe it already is and that's what this division (particularly in America) is all about; the sides struggling for power.

On the other hand, most of my friends would identify themselves as liberal, and yet they complain about the same things I do. So maybe the deterioration of society goes beyond the political spectrum. I think we've (America and Western Europe in particular) reached a Golden Age and, like Rome, we may soon start to fall. I hope not.

I think people are lost and don't know where to turn for answers (including me sometimes). That's my short answer.

I agree with a lot of what Soulquest (sp) said.

I was talking to my 10-year-old yesterday about some of this stuff, and I told him, "If you had a time machine, there's really nowhere you could go where everything would be perfect." Either things would be better but medicine wouldn't be as good, or things would be worse but families would be stronger, or wealth would be abundant but no one would remember God anymore.

Maybe society has always been going to hell. Maybe our grandchildren will say it's going to hell more than I could have imagined. All I know is that I don't like where certain trends are going. Beyond that it gets purely anecdotal, I guess, and purely subjective.

Like this wave of teenaged girls who all sound like bubble-headed bimbos who talk only in up-speak ("My name's Mindy? I live in California? I, like, don't rully know, like, what I'm doing?"). Everyone is a victim; no one ever does anything wrong; we all just "make mistakes" or it's somebody else's fault if it's actually "wrong". No absolute rights or wrongs anymore. Rap stars. Pimps. The "bling-bling". Lawyers. Everthing's material and crass. Illegal immigrants. Terrorists. Broken families. The trend of TV shows to be full of people using sarcasm all the time or insulting each other. People who are highly educated and have degrees but don't have a clue how to stay out of trouble, because common sense is all but dead. The Internet is great, but it also keeps us from meeting our neighbors-- in person!

Okay, yeah... we're all going to hell.