Un-b-effin'-lievable!
Yeah. It doesn't excuse it, but it does happen.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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Lord Mhoram
- Lord
- Posts: 9512
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 1:07 am
I haven't actually bothered with the film myself. But, out of curiosity if he has rearranged history to make all the heroes Jewish (in expectation of it being called Anti-Semitic before airing it), how could it be Anti-Semitic?
I Never Fail To Be Astounded By The Things We Do For Promises - Ronnie James Dio (All The Fools Sailed Away)
Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?
Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?
-
Lord Mhoram
- Lord
- Posts: 9512
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 1:07 am
I haven't seen the movie either. Here's the gist of the accusations though:
This movie is considered controversial by some Jewish and Christian groups. Some Jewish groups have expressed concern that the film blames the death of Jesus on the Jews as a group, which, they have said, could fan anti-Semitism. As much as a full year before the film's projected release, a heated controversy arose over whether it would depict Jews as responsible for the death of Jesus in the same way that previous passion plays have done, which has historically incited anti-Semitism. Members of the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith wrote a number of private letters to Mel Gibson, expressing their concerns that the movie may have unintended consequences for the Jewish community.
The Jewish community was concerned with the charge of deicide, which was the cause of many pogroms in history. Many rabbis in Orthodox Judaism, Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism expressed fear that any movie based on traditional passion play forms, and especially incorporating ideas of Anne Catherine Emmerich, could only be interpreted by the audience as encouraging anti-Semitism. Similar concerns were raised by leaders in Jewish communal organizations and in Jewish community newspapers. Fr. William Fulco, S.J. of Loyola Marymount University (who translated the dialogue of the film into Aramaic) frequently defended the movie against such charges, stating that the script did not violate the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops' 1988 criteria for portrayal of Jews in dramatizations of the Passion so as to avoid deliberate or inadvertent antisemitism.[29]
Gibson arranged for private screenings of the film; this caused more criticism, as his audiences included prominent Christians and Jews known for their political and social conservatism. Requests for a screening by the ADL were declined. American film reviewer, Michael Medved—a Jewish columnist and film reviewer—praised the movie's Biblical accuracy; although a February 16, 2004 Newsweek cover story by Jon Meacham suggests that there are numerous inaccuracies in the movie. Similarly, one statement by the ADL read:
"For filmmakers to do justice to the biblical accounts of the passion, they must complement their artistic vision with sound scholarship, which includes knowledge of how the passion accounts have been used historically to disparage and attack Jews and Judaism. Absent such scholarly and theological understanding, productions such as The Passion could likely falsify history and fuel the animus of those who hate Jews." [30]
An early version of the script was leaked by an employee of Icon Productions to a joint committee of the Secretariat for Ecumenical and Inter-religious Affairs of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops and the Department of Inter-religious Affairs of the Anti-Defamation League, who concluded that
it was one of the most troublesome texts relative to anti-Semitic potential that any of us had seen in 25 years. It must be emphasized that the main storyline presented Jesus as having been relentlessly pursued by an evil cabal of Jews headed by the high priest Caiphas who finally blackmailed a weak-kneed Pilate into putting Jesus to death. This is precisely the storyline that fueled centuries of anti-Semitism within Christian societies. This is also a storyline rejected by the Catholic Church at Vatican II in its document Nostra Aetate and by nearly all mainline Protestant churches in parallel documents. ... Unless this basic storyline has been altered by Mr. Gibson, a fringe Catholic who is building his own church in the Los Angeles area and who apparently accepts neither the teachings of Vatican II nor modern biblical scholarship, The Passion of the Christ retains a real potential for undermining the repudiation of classical Christian anti-Semitism by the churches in the last 40 years.[31]
When the movie was finally released, although some Jews were supportive of Gibson, the overwhelming reaction from within the Jewish community was highly negative. Reviewer Katha Pollitt of The Nation observed that "Gibson has violated just about every precept of the (United States Conference of Catholic Bishops) conference's own 1988 "Criteria" for the portrayal of Jews in dramatizations of the Passion (no bloodthirsty Jews, no rabble, no use of Scripture that reinforces negative stereotypes of Jews, etc.)". [32] The Jewish community was concerned with a number of issues:
* Many Jews, such as the High Priest, are portrayed as physically ugly. "The priests have big noses and gnarly faces, lumpish bodies, yellow teeth; Herod Antipas and his court are a bizarre collection of oily-haired, epicene perverts. The "good Jews" look like Italian movie stars (Magdalene actually is an Italian movie star, the lovely Monica Bellucci); Mary, who would have been around 50 and appeared 70, could pass for a ripe 35." [33]
* The High Priest is shown as if he a were a member in good standing of the Jewish community, and as having control over the Roman occupation; historians note that the Jews were not allowed to appoint their own High Priest according to Biblical law, and that the High Priest at the time was in the service of the Roman government.
* Pontius Pilate is portrayed as a thoughtful, temperate man who ultimately agrees to crucify Jesus because he does not want to risk a Jewish rebellion on the one hand and a Christian rebellion on the other; but historians, including his contemporary Josephus, describe his savage treatment of Jews in general, crucifying many Jews during his reign.
When Gibson was asked if his movie would be offensive to Jews today, he responded, "It's not meant to. I think it's meant to just tell the truth. I want to be as truthful as possible." However, there is no unique narration of the Passion in the Gospels which can be viewed as an undeniable factually "truthful" historical account. For instance, according to John, Jesus was arrested (Nisan 14) by Jewish aides of the Sanhedrin, but then was only questioned by Anas and Caiaphas, with no trial; while according to the Synoptics, he (Nisan 15) was only arrested by the Jewish aides, and condemned by the Sanhedrin.
In an interview in the Globe and Mail, February 14, 2004, Gibson said: "If anyone has distorted Gospel passages to rationalize cruelty towards Jews or anyone, it's in defiance of repeated papal condemnation. The Papacy has condemned racism in any form," and, "Jesus died for the sins of all times, and I'll be the first on the line for culpability."
An ADL web page posted on August 13, 2003 provided examples of anti-Semitic responses to the ADL's criticism of this project. [34] Critics of the ADL retorted that it couldn't have been the film that caused any hateful e-mails to the ADL because the film had not yet been screened in public; rather, it was the ADL's attacks against a film on the life of Jesus that was the motivation. The Catholic League responded to the ADL by accusing the organization of "seeking to poison relations between Catholics and Jews," contending that the "attacks on Mel Gibson have little to do with some off-the-cuff quips and everything to do with waging a frontal assault against all those people—Catholics, Protestants, Jews et al.—who have seen The Passion and love it." [35] Other commentators who have seen the film—such as Cal Thomas and Roger Ebert—have also categorically denied that the film contains anti-Semitic material. [36]
Leon Wieseltier stated in New Republic's March 8, 2004 issue, "In its representation of its Jewish characters, The Passion of the Christ is without any doubt an anti-Semitic movie, and anybody who says otherwise knows nothing, or chooses to know nothing, about the visual history of anti-Semitism, in art and in film. What is so shocking about Gibson's Jews is how unreconstructed they are in their stereotypical appearances and actions. These are not merely anti-Semitic images; these are classically anti-Semitic images." [37]
Adding to the controversy at the time was Gibson's father Hutton Gibson's history of Holocaust denial and somewhat antisemitic remarks, which Gibson himself never publicly unambiguously repudiated nor identified himself with. After the controversy had died down, however, it flared up again on July 28, 2006, when Gibson uttered anti-Semitic comments when he was arrested for driving under the influence.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passion_of_the_Christ
This movie is considered controversial by some Jewish and Christian groups. Some Jewish groups have expressed concern that the film blames the death of Jesus on the Jews as a group, which, they have said, could fan anti-Semitism. As much as a full year before the film's projected release, a heated controversy arose over whether it would depict Jews as responsible for the death of Jesus in the same way that previous passion plays have done, which has historically incited anti-Semitism. Members of the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith wrote a number of private letters to Mel Gibson, expressing their concerns that the movie may have unintended consequences for the Jewish community.
The Jewish community was concerned with the charge of deicide, which was the cause of many pogroms in history. Many rabbis in Orthodox Judaism, Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism expressed fear that any movie based on traditional passion play forms, and especially incorporating ideas of Anne Catherine Emmerich, could only be interpreted by the audience as encouraging anti-Semitism. Similar concerns were raised by leaders in Jewish communal organizations and in Jewish community newspapers. Fr. William Fulco, S.J. of Loyola Marymount University (who translated the dialogue of the film into Aramaic) frequently defended the movie against such charges, stating that the script did not violate the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops' 1988 criteria for portrayal of Jews in dramatizations of the Passion so as to avoid deliberate or inadvertent antisemitism.[29]
Gibson arranged for private screenings of the film; this caused more criticism, as his audiences included prominent Christians and Jews known for their political and social conservatism. Requests for a screening by the ADL were declined. American film reviewer, Michael Medved—a Jewish columnist and film reviewer—praised the movie's Biblical accuracy; although a February 16, 2004 Newsweek cover story by Jon Meacham suggests that there are numerous inaccuracies in the movie. Similarly, one statement by the ADL read:
"For filmmakers to do justice to the biblical accounts of the passion, they must complement their artistic vision with sound scholarship, which includes knowledge of how the passion accounts have been used historically to disparage and attack Jews and Judaism. Absent such scholarly and theological understanding, productions such as The Passion could likely falsify history and fuel the animus of those who hate Jews." [30]
An early version of the script was leaked by an employee of Icon Productions to a joint committee of the Secretariat for Ecumenical and Inter-religious Affairs of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops and the Department of Inter-religious Affairs of the Anti-Defamation League, who concluded that
it was one of the most troublesome texts relative to anti-Semitic potential that any of us had seen in 25 years. It must be emphasized that the main storyline presented Jesus as having been relentlessly pursued by an evil cabal of Jews headed by the high priest Caiphas who finally blackmailed a weak-kneed Pilate into putting Jesus to death. This is precisely the storyline that fueled centuries of anti-Semitism within Christian societies. This is also a storyline rejected by the Catholic Church at Vatican II in its document Nostra Aetate and by nearly all mainline Protestant churches in parallel documents. ... Unless this basic storyline has been altered by Mr. Gibson, a fringe Catholic who is building his own church in the Los Angeles area and who apparently accepts neither the teachings of Vatican II nor modern biblical scholarship, The Passion of the Christ retains a real potential for undermining the repudiation of classical Christian anti-Semitism by the churches in the last 40 years.[31]
When the movie was finally released, although some Jews were supportive of Gibson, the overwhelming reaction from within the Jewish community was highly negative. Reviewer Katha Pollitt of The Nation observed that "Gibson has violated just about every precept of the (United States Conference of Catholic Bishops) conference's own 1988 "Criteria" for the portrayal of Jews in dramatizations of the Passion (no bloodthirsty Jews, no rabble, no use of Scripture that reinforces negative stereotypes of Jews, etc.)". [32] The Jewish community was concerned with a number of issues:
* Many Jews, such as the High Priest, are portrayed as physically ugly. "The priests have big noses and gnarly faces, lumpish bodies, yellow teeth; Herod Antipas and his court are a bizarre collection of oily-haired, epicene perverts. The "good Jews" look like Italian movie stars (Magdalene actually is an Italian movie star, the lovely Monica Bellucci); Mary, who would have been around 50 and appeared 70, could pass for a ripe 35." [33]
* The High Priest is shown as if he a were a member in good standing of the Jewish community, and as having control over the Roman occupation; historians note that the Jews were not allowed to appoint their own High Priest according to Biblical law, and that the High Priest at the time was in the service of the Roman government.
* Pontius Pilate is portrayed as a thoughtful, temperate man who ultimately agrees to crucify Jesus because he does not want to risk a Jewish rebellion on the one hand and a Christian rebellion on the other; but historians, including his contemporary Josephus, describe his savage treatment of Jews in general, crucifying many Jews during his reign.
When Gibson was asked if his movie would be offensive to Jews today, he responded, "It's not meant to. I think it's meant to just tell the truth. I want to be as truthful as possible." However, there is no unique narration of the Passion in the Gospels which can be viewed as an undeniable factually "truthful" historical account. For instance, according to John, Jesus was arrested (Nisan 14) by Jewish aides of the Sanhedrin, but then was only questioned by Anas and Caiaphas, with no trial; while according to the Synoptics, he (Nisan 15) was only arrested by the Jewish aides, and condemned by the Sanhedrin.
In an interview in the Globe and Mail, February 14, 2004, Gibson said: "If anyone has distorted Gospel passages to rationalize cruelty towards Jews or anyone, it's in defiance of repeated papal condemnation. The Papacy has condemned racism in any form," and, "Jesus died for the sins of all times, and I'll be the first on the line for culpability."
An ADL web page posted on August 13, 2003 provided examples of anti-Semitic responses to the ADL's criticism of this project. [34] Critics of the ADL retorted that it couldn't have been the film that caused any hateful e-mails to the ADL because the film had not yet been screened in public; rather, it was the ADL's attacks against a film on the life of Jesus that was the motivation. The Catholic League responded to the ADL by accusing the organization of "seeking to poison relations between Catholics and Jews," contending that the "attacks on Mel Gibson have little to do with some off-the-cuff quips and everything to do with waging a frontal assault against all those people—Catholics, Protestants, Jews et al.—who have seen The Passion and love it." [35] Other commentators who have seen the film—such as Cal Thomas and Roger Ebert—have also categorically denied that the film contains anti-Semitic material. [36]
Leon Wieseltier stated in New Republic's March 8, 2004 issue, "In its representation of its Jewish characters, The Passion of the Christ is without any doubt an anti-Semitic movie, and anybody who says otherwise knows nothing, or chooses to know nothing, about the visual history of anti-Semitism, in art and in film. What is so shocking about Gibson's Jews is how unreconstructed they are in their stereotypical appearances and actions. These are not merely anti-Semitic images; these are classically anti-Semitic images." [37]
Adding to the controversy at the time was Gibson's father Hutton Gibson's history of Holocaust denial and somewhat antisemitic remarks, which Gibson himself never publicly unambiguously repudiated nor identified himself with. After the controversy had died down, however, it flared up again on July 28, 2006, when Gibson uttered anti-Semitic comments when he was arrested for driving under the influence.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passion_of_the_Christ
-
Menolly
- A Lowly Harper
- Posts: 24089
- Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 12:29 am
- Location: Harper Hall, Fort Hold, Northern Continent, Pern...
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 8 times
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Sarge, I am kicking muself for saying this, as before I had to deal with Beorn's disordr I honestly thought the gender made no difference, but I think this falls into a gender difference between Julie and Paul.sgtnull wrote:and i still say its bull. julie was raised by some very racist parents. and when she gets drunk (the rare occassion) she doesn't start popping of about how blacks are ruining everything. you get by your raising and start your own thoughts.
I think a woman will still censor herself, even if they have such hateful thoughts from childhood instilled in them. Whereas I think a man will totally let go of self censorship when totally wasted (Avatar and his self control notwithstanding).
-
Avatar
- Immanentizing The Eschaton
- Posts: 61791
- Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:17 am
- Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
- Has thanked: 15 times
- Been thanked: 22 times
I don't think we can really argue from the personal to the general though Sgt.
We all know that everybody is different, that they react differently, that they respond differently. Just because you don't doesn't mean that everybody doesn't. *shrug*
And that said, I wonder if there isn't something to Menolly's point in some sense.
We all tend to shy away from gender differences, but there are differences that are ground into the cells by biology and evolution. I think we have a very unclear understanding of them really.
--A
We all know that everybody is different, that they react differently, that they respond differently. Just because you don't doesn't mean that everybody doesn't. *shrug*
And that said, I wonder if there isn't something to Menolly's point in some sense.
We all tend to shy away from gender differences, but there are differences that are ground into the cells by biology and evolution. I think we have a very unclear understanding of them really.
--A
Menolly, I'd like you to meet my Ex-Wife. You guys'll have fun, go out for drinks, and - after about 1 1/2 run n' cokes - ask her about anything (politics, crime, her Ex-Husband, the differences between men and women, etc.) and see what happens.Menolly wrote:Sarge, I am kicking muself for saying this, as before I had to deal with Beorn's disordr I honestly thought the gender made no difference, but I think this falls into a gender difference between Julie and Paul.sgtnull wrote:and i still say its bull. julie was raised by some very racist parents. and when she gets drunk (the rare occassion) she doesn't start popping of about how blacks are ruining everything. you get by your raising and start your own thoughts.
I think a woman will still censor herself, even if they have such hateful thoughts from childhood instilled in them. Whereas I think a man will totally let go of self censorship when totally wasted (Avatar and his self control notwithstanding).
Some people can self-censor when drunk. Some people can't.
The plumbing makes no difference - although the upbringing might.
“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
Mel Gibson might have been letting out his true feelings about Jews... or he might not. I can't say for sure.
I say this because of something that happened with a dear friend, who I've known since 1972. Living in a blended family, she has never been prejudiced and gets upset if anyone else seems to be.
My friend had a mental breakdown a few years back. During it she experienced a lot of different things. In one "block", she was at the hospital talking to a black nurse. She said she couldn't make the lady understand what she was saying, but she clearly remembers saying to her, "Hey, you n----r bitch, pay attention!"
I know she only did it to get the woman's attention, and she apologized to her profusely once she got the chance (the nurse was very understanding and admitted she'd heard worse). The thing that took me aback was that my friend, feeling as strongly as she does about racial bigotry towards black people, could say something like that! She said she must have been doing it just to get the woman's attention. But... wow.
Maybe Gibson was trying to get a similar reaction out of the cop? I don't know. Maybe he really has some deep-seated problem with Jews. I don't know that, either.
Meanwhile, Avatar caught my attention again...
I say this because of something that happened with a dear friend, who I've known since 1972. Living in a blended family, she has never been prejudiced and gets upset if anyone else seems to be.
My friend had a mental breakdown a few years back. During it she experienced a lot of different things. In one "block", she was at the hospital talking to a black nurse. She said she couldn't make the lady understand what she was saying, but she clearly remembers saying to her, "Hey, you n----r bitch, pay attention!"
I know she only did it to get the woman's attention, and she apologized to her profusely once she got the chance (the nurse was very understanding and admitted she'd heard worse). The thing that took me aback was that my friend, feeling as strongly as she does about racial bigotry towards black people, could say something like that! She said she must have been doing it just to get the woman's attention. But... wow.
Maybe Gibson was trying to get a similar reaction out of the cop? I don't know. Maybe he really has some deep-seated problem with Jews. I don't know that, either.
Meanwhile, Avatar caught my attention again...
Why?We all tend to shy away from gender differences,
"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares about more than his personal safety; is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. "
- John Stuart Mill, English philosopher
- John Stuart Mill, English philosopher
Oooohhh, Chas. You make me sorry I have to go to work.
“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
Plissken wrote:Oooohhh, Chas. You make me sorry I have to go to work.
"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares about more than his personal safety; is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. "
- John Stuart Mill, English philosopher
- John Stuart Mill, English philosopher
Christ.....Here we go.....
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________