Euthanasia?
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- variol son
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Ok, I'm going to way in on this one (gods only know why).
Let's say that this man from Italy gets therapy and is found to be clinically depressed. So? He still can't walk or talk or eat or shit or make love to a woman (or man) or do much of anything else. Everything that many people associate with having a high quality of life is lost to him, regardless of whether or not he is depressed.
As for suicide, I like Cail's line on this one - tell people that they shouldn't but not that they can't. Yes, I know that the law says suicide is illegal, but we're hardly going to try someone by jury for attempted suicide. At least not in NZ.
Besides, if we don't allow depressed folks to suicide, shouldn't we also be stopping them from having children? We don't let them end their own lives, why should they be allowed to ruin the life of another?
What difference does it actually make, in terms of allowing euthanasia, whether the person asking for death is depressed or not?sgtnull wrote:is this man's desire to die a by product of his injury? would he want to die if he was injury-free? isn't his death wish a condition of circumstance? I would argue that he isn't in a place to judge this issue. he should get therapy and see if there is an underlying depression, proving that he isn't in the right frame to make this decision.
Let's say that this man from Italy gets therapy and is found to be clinically depressed. So? He still can't walk or talk or eat or shit or make love to a woman (or man) or do much of anything else. Everything that many people associate with having a high quality of life is lost to him, regardless of whether or not he is depressed.
As for suicide, I like Cail's line on this one - tell people that they shouldn't but not that they can't. Yes, I know that the law says suicide is illegal, but we're hardly going to try someone by jury for attempted suicide. At least not in NZ.
Besides, if we don't allow depressed folks to suicide, shouldn't we also be stopping them from having children? We don't let them end their own lives, why should they be allowed to ruin the life of another?
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
- sgt.null
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because if his mind is not clear, his thinking not entirely his own, how can you say that in a rational mind that is what he would choose?
i would advocate therapy and meds.
and your list taken individually would hold a lot of people. so she we advocate offing onself for any of the listed?
and since you don't believe that a person's suicide would impact some family member in a negative way, why would his continued living?
i would advocate therapy and meds.
and your list taken individually would hold a lot of people. so she we advocate offing onself for any of the listed?
and since you don't believe that a person's suicide would impact some family member in a negative way, why would his continued living?
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- variol son
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I get the feeling sarge that you are intimating that a rational mind would never choose death when in fact you personally wouldn't choose death.
Someone with nothing to do but think would probably have a lot of time to consider every option. They may not make their decision rationally, because most important human decisions aren't made that way, but that doesn't mean their decision is born soley out of depression.
Also, advocating therapy and meds for someone who can't move at all is a little patronizing. What are we hoping to do - convince them to be happy about the fact that their body is a prison?
As for my list, it was actually a list of the specific things the man in question can't do, as I'm sure you knew, and not a list of individual things that should allow for euthanasia.
Finally, I am quite aware that a persons suicide negatively impacts many people. However, it does not physically harm anyone else. I know from personal experience that the sadness of losing a loved one to suicide can be overcome.
Someone with nothing to do but think would probably have a lot of time to consider every option. They may not make their decision rationally, because most important human decisions aren't made that way, but that doesn't mean their decision is born soley out of depression.
Also, advocating therapy and meds for someone who can't move at all is a little patronizing. What are we hoping to do - convince them to be happy about the fact that their body is a prison?
As for my list, it was actually a list of the specific things the man in question can't do, as I'm sure you knew, and not a list of individual things that should allow for euthanasia.
Finally, I am quite aware that a persons suicide negatively impacts many people. However, it does not physically harm anyone else. I know from personal experience that the sadness of losing a loved one to suicide can be overcome.
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
- sgt.null
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Av: your death would be a detriment to your family and friends. especially if it ended in such a selfish, irrational manner.
vs: of course a rational mind would never choose suicide. it is the abandonment of hope. if the pain of losing one to suicide can be overcome by others, the pain of living can be overcome by the individual.
vs: of course a rational mind would never choose suicide. it is the abandonment of hope. if the pain of losing one to suicide can be overcome by others, the pain of living can be overcome by the individual.
Lenin, Marx
Marx, Lennon
Good Dog...
Marx, Lennon
Good Dog...
Bunk.
We all (ultimately) live lives for ourselves. No one can make us feel anything, just as we can't make anyone else feel anything.
We all (ultimately) live lives for ourselves. No one can make us feel anything, just as we can't make anyone else feel anything.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
- Cameraman Jenn
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I think if my family member was in the same situation as that guy in Italy and was staying alive only because he was afraid to cause ME pain by suiciding I would feel horrible guilt for making him suffer. Seriously, if you are miserable and staying alive to please other people then what is the point? Then you are all just miserable.
Now if I could just find a way to wear live bees as jewelry all the time.....
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- The Laughing Man
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- The Laughing Man
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- Cameraman Jenn
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yes.
Now if I could just find a way to wear live bees as jewelry all the time.....
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- DukkhaWaynhim
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I think it would be irresponsible and morally bankrupt to let someone commit suicide without repeatedly presenting them with some realistic & reasonable options - including counseling and meds, if determined necessary.
But in the (assumedly rare) cases where adults that can be reasonably proven to be in their right mind, that after counseling, advice, and pleas by others to choose a different path, if someone still opts to end their own life, and they can do so without physically or materially endangering the lives of others, I don't see the legal basis for restraining that legally-sane person from doing so.
Keep it illegal to deter the foolish, and certainly don't allow people to make insurance money off it, but let it happen. Is it morally wrong? Yes. Should someone be physically or chemically restrained from exercising a choice that has no bearing on any other person but themself? I say no, as long as it can be proven that the person is of otherwise sound mind - I will agree with Sarge to the extent that we should at least initially question the 'sound-ness' of the mind of someone contemplating suicide - it isn't natural, and should never be undertaken lightly - but the Italian man seems to be aware that he has options - he just doesn't like them.
DW
But in the (assumedly rare) cases where adults that can be reasonably proven to be in their right mind, that after counseling, advice, and pleas by others to choose a different path, if someone still opts to end their own life, and they can do so without physically or materially endangering the lives of others, I don't see the legal basis for restraining that legally-sane person from doing so.
Keep it illegal to deter the foolish, and certainly don't allow people to make insurance money off it, but let it happen. Is it morally wrong? Yes. Should someone be physically or chemically restrained from exercising a choice that has no bearing on any other person but themself? I say no, as long as it can be proven that the person is of otherwise sound mind - I will agree with Sarge to the extent that we should at least initially question the 'sound-ness' of the mind of someone contemplating suicide - it isn't natural, and should never be undertaken lightly - but the Italian man seems to be aware that he has options - he just doesn't like them.
DW
"God is real, unless declared integer." - Unknown
Do you think they are going to care if they are dead?sgtnull wrote:you tell them it is against the law. that isn't arrogance. it is the fact.Cail wrote:May be, but I'm not arrogant enough to tell someone they can't off themselves. I will tell them why they shouldn't.
If i was thinking about killing myself, the fact that its against the law wouldnt matter in the least.
But if you're all about the destination, then take a fucking flight.
We're going nowhere slowly, but we're seeing all the sights.
And we're definitely going to hell, but we'll have all the best stories to tell.
Full of the heavens and time.
We're going nowhere slowly, but we're seeing all the sights.
And we're definitely going to hell, but we'll have all the best stories to tell.
Full of the heavens and time.
- Cameraman Jenn
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Good Point Warmark!!!
Now if I could just find a way to wear live bees as jewelry all the time.....
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I think we can all agree that the law is foolish, and no one has ever been prosecuted for successfully committing suicide.
Look, I'm not advocating people offing themselves over traffic infractions, but in certain cases (like the Italian man's), how on earth can I tell him that life's worth living when I can move and walk and screw? It probably wouldn't mean much to him.
Look, I'm not advocating people offing themselves over traffic infractions, but in certain cases (like the Italian man's), how on earth can I tell him that life's worth living when I can move and walk and screw? It probably wouldn't mean much to him.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________