Illegal Aliens

[The Laughing Man]

I thought I'd mention also that we have a Border Patrol station here at the local Post Office, too, strangely enough. We're close to Canada to be fair, but it's for the migrant workers too. In their favor I will say that the majority of them are (were?) here legally, due to federal/state mandated programs, etc., but I always found it odd, considering it's typically a "southwest issue".....

[sindatur]

I thought I'd mention also that we have a Border Patrol station here at the local Post Office, too, strangely enough. We're close to Canada to be fair, but it's for the migrant workers too. In their favor I will say that the majority of them are (were?) here legally, due to federal/state mandated programs, etc., but I always found it odd, considering it's typically a "southwest issue".....

Especially since the Candian Dollar is worth 1/3 to 1/2 more than the American Dollar.

[Chassit]

I went back a few months here and saw no Illegal Alien threads. No Illegal Alien threads ... in the Tank!? Of all places, an issue that involves all countries should have at least one thread here...or even one post.

Well, I'll start one with this post:

Illegal aliens murder 12 Americans daily.

worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53103

My kin has been in america since the 1830's; hoped off the boat in Baltimore, all legal like, too. Don't know of a single murderer amoungst us (but there might have been a horse thief long ago shhhhh).

So, Illegal Aliens... ya fer em or agin em. Give em the vote or give them the rope. We use our taxes to feed and house and imprision them when the get wiley like the post above. I don't like the idea of a wall; that's nuts, and tagging them in the ear or with neck-radios to keep track is too much, but something has to be done obviously.

I am coming around to the idea of an offical language law, too. I think one language binds a country more than having a few different languages. I say all this reading where at least in the US migrants have a better chance of being absorbed into the culture unlike in many European countries: France for example.

Anyway, that article was an eye opener to me.

I can tell you, KT, this is my pet peeve. I just haven't been in here for awhile or I would have mentioned it first.

I'm tired of "press one for English". I'm tired of having to try to pick up on the Spanish the people in the back at KFC or Taco Bell are speaking so that I can correct them if they think I want "dos" when I clearly said "tres" but in English-- "No no, tres! Tres!" I'm tired of walking through the grocery store and having one person behind me and another in front of me yelling in Spanish over my head like I'm not even there.

But besides the minor irritations, I do subscribe to language-borders-culture. Every country needs those three things to survive in the long run. Go to Mexico and they won't teach your kids in English. So why do we teach theirs in Spanish?

President Bush doesn't get it. The Democrats and Republicans and Libertarians don't get it. You and I get it, and a lot of other Americans get it, but we don't matter. Tom Tancredo gets it, but he's been painted as eeeeevillll.

And yes, the crime rate among people who are already breaking the law by just being here illegally is staggering. It scares me. Americans come in all colors and shapes, but one thing binds us: We're Americans.

My husband joked last week that we might move to Australia if this keeps up. At least they still mostly speak English there, last time I checked. Or I could learn another country's language and move there. At least I can figure that's the language of the land, whatever it is.

It isn't about targeting a specific racial group. If white Canadians were coming illegally and speaking French but refusing to learn English and breaking the law, I'd feel exactly the same way. Besides, OTMs (other than Mexicans) are using our weak border to disguise themselves and come on in. I don't care who you are: If you're here illegally, you're cutting in line. You're breaking the law. Period.

We need to wake up!

[Chassit]

A Republican controlled House, Senate and President did jacksquat about illegals over the last 6 years.


Dems will make them all citizens and probably give them debit cards to welcome them here too!

"We're doomed." --C3PO

[oops-- double posting, SHAME on me!!]

[Lord Mhoram]

Regarding the growing bilinguality of America: One wonders how anti-Spanish language Americans would feel living in Europe, where a concentration of multiple languages is a way of life - a way of life that is embraced for the sake of multiculturalism and economic opportunity.

[Chassit]

Regarding the growing bilinguality of America: One wonders how anti-Spanish language Americans would feel living in Europe, where a concentration of multiple languages is a way of life - a way of life that is embraced for the sake of multiculturalism and economic opportunity.

It's a little different in Europe, being a land which is home to several countries. In France they speak French and teach their children in French. Not Spanish. Not English. Not Swahili. And that's how it should be.

To clarify a point, it isn't "anti-Spanish" as much as it is "pro-English". Speaking Spanish isn't a problem. Not speaking English here is a problem when it divides people from other people needlessly.

[Lord Mhoram]

Europe is home to many countries, while America is home to many races, ethnicities, what have you. Having spent time in France, I can tell you that at least a sizable minority of the French speak middling to fluent English, and English is taught alongside French at a young age. I that Spanish should be taught in America at that same level, alongside English however. Still, I do see a lot of these defenses of English as more reactionary to multiculturalism than anything else.

[Chassit]

This is very interesting.

Forgive me but, I post an article about how illegal aliens came across the southern border with weapons, firing upon and forcing our border agents to retreat and no one even comments on it.

Do we not care that this happened? Our border agents were fired upon by men attempting to cross our border illegally (probably drug traffikers is my guess) and our government does nothing. I have heard no new report other than this article on this matter and it cannot even spark discussion in this forum.

Okay, here's one for ya:

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,244193,00.html

2 Border Patrol Agents Turn Themselves in for Shooting Mexican Drug Runner

Thursday, January 18, 2007

By Liza Porteus

AP

Former U.S. Border Patrol agents Ignacio Ramos (left) and Jose Alonso Compean (right) turn themselves in to federal authorities on Wednesday.

Two Texas Border Patrol agents convicted of shooting a Mexican drug runner in the backside while on duty turned themselves in to U.S. Marshals Wednesday.

There's still no word on whether President Bush will grant them a pardon.

Ignacio Ramos and Jose Alonso Compean began serving 11- and 12-year prison sentences, respectively, for the February 2005 non-fatal shooting of Osvaldo Aldrete Davila.

Several groups, including Friends of the Border Patrol, The Minutemen and Grassfire.org, have been trying through petitions to keep the agents out of prison — either by a motion to allow them to remain free on bond during an appeal or through a presidential pardon.

U.S. District Judge Kathleen Cardone denied a motion for the two ex-agents to remain free on bond until their appeals on Tuesday...

Read the rest at the link.

Bush really ticked me off the other day when someone asked him about this. He said something about the two men "ignoring some standards". So they get prison, and the drug smuggler gets a green card and a plane ride to the U.S. to testify against them?? WTF!!

This is why we're in this mess.

Europe is home to many countries, while America is home to many races, ethnicities, what have you. Having spent time in France, I can tell you that at least a sizable minority of the French speak middling to fluent English, and English is taught alongside French at a young age.

Point conceded. But why? I suspect it has to do with it being the Internet language or some similar reason. Otherwise I wouldn't see the point.

I that Spanish should be taught in America at that same level, alongside English however. Still, I do see a lot of these defenses of English as more reactionary to multiculturalism than anything else.

But we've always been multicultural, from the beginning. I myself am a descendant of legal immigrants who were Irish, German, English and American Indian, as well as French. I grew up with black and Mexican best friends. We were all Americans together.

I can tell you for certain, without a doubt, that if everyone suddenly started speaking English here, and coming here legally, I wouldn't care whatsoever what their ethnicity was. We're supposed to be a melting pot, not a buffet. Having multiple languages works great in Europe. But in the U.S. it divides us.

[The Laughing Man]

"If Compean and Ramos truly believed Aldrete [Davila] was a threat, why did they abandon him after shooting him?" Sutton asked. "And if they truly believed the shooting was justified, why did they not report it, leave the scene undisturbed, and let the investigation absolve them? The answer to these questions are simple. The agents knew that Aldrete did not pose a threat as he fled, they knew the shooting was unjustified and unlawful, and they knew an investigation would incriminate them. So they chose to cover up their crimes."

"These agents shot someone who they knew to be unarmed and running away," Sutton said. "They destroyed evidence, covered up a crime scene and then filed false reports about what happened. It is shocking that there are people who believe it is OK for agents to shoot an unarmed suspect who is running away."

Criminals belong in jail, especially ones with badges.

[Lord Mhoram]

Chassit,

I suspect it has to do with it being the Internet language or some similar reason. Otherwise I wouldn't see the point.

The Internet is, I think, part and parcel of the fact that English is an international language of business, academia, diplomacy, et cetera. The French recognize this, and recognize the fact that English, being the second most widely spoken language on the planet (Spanish is fourth), and is thus worth teaching and worth knowing.

And you are right about the multiethnicity of the past, and their success in immigrating legally and learning English quickly and efficiently. Leaving aside the whole aspect of immigration, since I'm talking about multiculturalism at the moment specifically, it was frankly a different time then. When the Irish came to America in large numbers in the 19th century, the economy at the time was not globalized to the degree it is now. "Linguistic genocide" was not as rampant as it is now. Now, the world is smaller thanks to communication and transportation. The economy reflects this - and an increasingly global economy calls for citizens of a nation to be able to speak more than one language (among other things). Bilinguality is something that public schools have utterly failed to address.

I realize what you and many others are saying about illegal immigration, and I agree (to a degree). But I would be wary of rejecting the speaking of Spanish in this nation. For instance, Congress (was it the House or the Senate?) made the meaningless gesture of making English our "official, national language." Why? To show how patriotic and strong American culture is. To say, in essence, "Hispanics need not apply." This tunnel vision regarding multiculturalism is reactionary and detrimental.

[Tjol]

I comprehend Spanish very well, even if I speak it with little confidence....unless I've been actively practicing.

that all said, there is only one cultural 'sect' in this country that refuses to speak the common language, and instead demands that everyone else speaks theirs. You know which cultural 'sect' that is L. Mhoram, and you know it's completely reasonable for every other culture that is a part of this great nation to be just a touch disgusted with that cultural 'sect'.

It has nothing to do with disliking people from this country or that, and everything to do with having some minimal sense of self respect, enough self respect anyways, to object when someone dictates what is to be done, without any willingness to do the same themselves.

I was taught bilingually in grade school. I witnessed the majority of hispanic children being able to speak english, but choosing to speak spanish so as to have an excuse when they weren't keeping up with the course work. Is that the mark of a group that thinks it's better than everyone else? I think so, and I understand the resentment held towards such an attitude about the other cultures that it shares this country with.

And then there's the issue of criminals. You'd think that people would want criminals to be punished, and to be sent out of the country when the opportunity is there. But because the criminals share the same skin color, large numbers will protest Costa Mesa city hall for passing a law that would have Costa Mesa officers deport ex-convicts known to be in the country illegally.

Is it really the poor hispanics being discriminated against? Or have a large portion of hispanics been bad neighbors? I'd hate for a 5th generation American to suffer for the actions of a zero generation illegal alien, so racism should certianly be avoided. But, Primero Uno para Espanol (that's an enye) is a consequence of one cultural 'sect' that thinks it's the center of the universe; many in the group are hispanic.... but there are numbers of hispanic people who value this nation over 'primero uno' as well. The latter wouldn't care less if primero uno was no longer present in telephone menus, and they're not traitors to the race for feeling that way either.

[Avatar]

The eleven official languages of South Africa are as follows (with the name used for each language, by speakers of that language, in parentheses):

Afrikaans (Afrikaans), English, Ndebele (isiNdebele), Northern Sotho (Sesotho sa Leboa), Sotho (Sesotho), Swati (siSwati), Tsonga (Xitsonga), Tswana (Setswana), Venda (Tshivenda), Xhosa (isiXhosa), Zulu (isiZulu).

The Constitution also recognises a further eight non-official "national languages":

Fanagalo, (The equivalent of a South African Esperanto), Lobedu (Khilobedu), Northern Ndebele (Sindebele), Phuthi (Siphuthi), South African Sign Language, Khoe, Nama, San (Khoisan/Khoesan) languages.

Education, forms, official documents, all of that is available in which ever of theofficial languages required. Television programs, TV news, radio broadcasts, all are available in all the official laguages.

Every person in South Africa speaks a minimum of 2 languages, with 3 or 4 being considerably more common, and many people have an understanding at least of several more.

I wonder sometimes if the reason Americans are so keen on the idea of everybody speaking the language of the country is because they don't want to think of people as different. But people are different. You can't get away from it. And if you want a culture of tolerance, you have to accept the fact.

Hell, back in '76 here, there were riots when the apartheid government decreed that education in black schools would henceforth be done in Afrikaans, the laguage of the oppressor. Hundreds died, schools were burned, students ran rampant through what is now called the Soweto Uprising. The government backed down eventually.

Education in the language of your choice is not only a right, it's a necessity for exactly the same reason that Tjol seems to suggest, albeit negatively. If the coursework and education is both in the laguage of choice, then there can't be an excuse for falling behind. An excuse which, lets be honest, could be a legitimate one as well. *shrug*

America permits many religions. Why should it permit only one language?

--A

[Brinn]

Education in the language of your choice is not only a right, it's a necessity for exactly the same reason that Tjol seems to suggest, albeit negatively

What? This makes no sense to me. If I go to South Africa and insist on being educated in ancient Sumerian, I can claim a violation of my rights if an instructor in Sumerian is not found and provided?

[sindatur]

I have to agree with the Right Wing comments for the most part. While certainly I have no problem with someone remaining fluent in their first language, and I have no problem with the requirement of at least 1 year of a foreign language in school, it is absolutely wrong for people to come to this country, and refuse to learn our language. I wouldn't expect to go to France or Mexico to live, and not learn the local language.

I absolutely do not see a problem with it being a requirement to speak the language in order to qualify for a job serving the public, such as auditor, fast food window, waiter, cashier, etc.

BTW, the USA has one of the biggest economies (used to be the outright biggest) and therefore English is the language of Commerce. That is the primary reason that English is required as a second language in many countries that do not speak English as the native language. When Vietnam was French possessed, French was the popular second language.

There is absolutely no reason why immigrants should be allowed not to learn a country's native language, yet the natives are required to learn theirs. It should go both ways, if you really want to enhance cultures. Allowing them to stay ignorant of a country's native language, and forcing the natives to learn their language is not by any means becoming part of that country you emmigrated to.

We have large populations of Indians, Vietnamese, Mexicans, Slavs and several other ethnicities, and the influx changes all the time. How can you possibly expect citizens to learn all those languages, especially as adults with busy lives?

[Chassit]

@LM, Av, et al:

You guys bring up some valid points. I do think a second language is a great idea as well. I was trying to learn German for awhile, just so I'd have knowledge of another language besides English. Lately I've been thinking of learning Spanish instead, if for no other reason than the increasing necessity: If they won't learn mine, I'll have to learn theirs.

I think bilingual and even trilingual children have an edge on others and are sharpening areas of their brains that the rest of us aren't. They would have that extra edge in Europe or other multilingual countries that we wouldn't have.

To the point of pro-English advocates being apprehensive about "differences", I keep hearing that, but I don't see any substance to it. Even when you hear people complain about "those Mexicans here illegally", it has nothing to do with the color of their skin, but rather the country that is the focal point of this whole problem right now.

I'm just a proponent of English, even some flexible form of it that sounds pretty close to the language of commerce. My son has been speaking in Ebonics for the last two or three years, and I hate it. I don't hate it because he's black (obviously), or hate it more from his black friends than I do him. I don't care who isn't bothering to speak English; I just would like to hear more people try.

I know it seems strange, especially to you, Av, or others in other countries, that it should be so important for us to have one language here. But it's the nature of our country, our history, to meld/melt together and to speak one language. We recognize and welcome the differences between people, be they religious, ethnic or whatever. But all through our history as a nation, we have spoken our unique languages at home with each other, and English in public and with others. That isn't so true anymore, and yes, I do believe this to be a detriment in our specific case. We seem to be more divided than ever. We've been divided by other things besides language, but at least we've had English in common. If you can't speak the same language as your neighbor, your grocer, your child's friend's mother, then bam, there's automatic division.

Anecdotally again, when I sent my son to bilingual kindergarten years ago, I ran into this stubborn refusal to speak English by the Hispanic families. I would say "hello" to a child or adult and get a blank stare, or even a stare that looked a lot like "F-- you." Almost every time! I simply do not believe that they don't understand "hello". That's just stubbornness and refusal to integrate. I met one lady who smiled and said "hi" back, and she tried so hard, in her very broken English, to get to know me. That was rare. I admired her for that. She was at least trying.

I think part of what bothers me, not logically but emotionally about this, is that now even our Weather Channel has the days of the week in Spanish. Yet I can figure out pretty quickly which days they would be in English. So... why can't they? Why this patronization? It's unnecessary!

But no, that they're "different" doesn't bother me. I would hate a world where everyone looked or thought like me. But I mean, if my great-great-grandfather had refused to learn English and encouraged his family to speak German instead, my grandfather wouldn't have done as well as he did. And I don't think my other great-grandfather's Chippewah would be much help to me now, either.

Part of what makes us great (in my opinion) is that we are all different, we don't all look the same, but we share a country and a language together called English. It's not what the British speak, and that's okay. It's American, and the basic accent is a conglomeration of all the accents of immigrants from the past. From what I understand from one linguist, English is taking on a more Spanish sound. That's natural because we have more Hispanic immigrants here. But at least it's still English.

*runs out of steam* *sigh*

[Prebe]

English is an international language of business, academia, diplomacy, et cetera.

Untill 10 years ago, French was.

The French recognize this, and recognize the fact that English, being the second most widely spoken language on the planet (Spanish is fourth), and is thus worth teaching and worth knowing

Like hell they do! They are being forced at gunpoint! The French are the biggest language fascists ever! If you had picked ANY other european country I would have agreed. Even if you DO speak French, you have to be an expert for them to even bother. At least in the places I've been (which are limited to Paris, Tolouse and Lyon)

[[Syl]]

To be fair, Spanish is a lot easier to learn than English. That said, I also get a little ticked when someone brings their teenage kid along to translate for them. If you've been here that long, rudimentary communication should not be beyond you. In fact, it would seem to take a willing effort not to have learned.

[Plissken]

English is an international language of business, academia, diplomacy, et cetera.

Untill 10 years ago, French was.

The French recognize this, and recognize the fact that English, being the second most widely spoken language on the planet (Spanish is fourth), and is thus worth teaching and worth knowing

Like hell they do! They are being forced at gunpoint! The French are the biggest language fascists ever! If you had picked ANY other european country I would have agreed. Even if you DO speak French, you have to be an expert for them to even bother. At least in the places I've been (which are limited to Paris, Tolouse and Lyon)

HA! And I just shook my head, and said to myself, "Okay, it's not worth it..."

Kudos, Prebe!

[Avatar]

Brinn, perhaps language of "choice" was a poor word. Your home laguage, the language of your culture/ethnic group would be a better one.

Actually, I'm sure that they limit the available choices to the 19 recognised languages, and even then, it's the 11 official ones that get preference. (There are also foreign language schools btw, the Italian and German school to name just two.)

In interesting contrast, I believe that most people opt to have their children educated in English anyway, but because other languages are catered for, everybody can continue their own cultural identity as well.

Now, I'm certainly willing to agree that things like jobs in the service indusry can have a requirement that the employee speak English, no problem. But why would you want to make everybody speak English?

Not to belabour the point, but if America recognises and welcomes the differences between people, why try to eradicate them, even just in public?

America doesn't seem to want a multi-cultural society. It seems to want everybody to be as close to the same as they'll put up with. Or so it seems from some of these posts.

Isn't sharing a country enough? Why must you share a language? So as not to inconvenience you?

I just don't get it.

Sure, it makes things easier if everybody understands each other. Without a doubt. But this emotional response...

...look at it from the other side:

The people that are being railed at for not speaking English, or not wanting to speak it, or trying to get their children educated in another language...they're clinging deperately to a cultural identity that they're trying to preserve in one of the most homogenising nations in the world.

Don't they have a right to that as well?

Ad anyway, I don't recall the constitution or the bill of rights or the pledge of whatever it is saying "one nation, with one language..."

--A

[Cail]

Av, I think you're obfuscating the point. No one's saying that immigrants have to forget their language, just that they have to use English when conducting business in the US.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't want non-English speakers who can't read traffic signs driving.