Down with love & Valentine's Day!

[Cameraman Jenn]

Oh pipe down ponce!

[Menolly]

You know, I don't really want to feed the flames, but I'm really sick of biting my tongue. I'm well aware of the origins of the swastika, and for that matter, those of the cross symbol. However the origins of both symbols have been completely overshadowed by historical events that have left an indelible impression on humanity. Whatever they meant before, the cross is universally recognized as a Christian symbol, and the swastika has become representative of murder, degradation, and genocide. This has nothing to do with political correctness or anti-semitism. Being offended by a symbol that has come to stand for the mass murder of 12 million people is a completely correct response.

Birdy, the point of my post to Ms. Mary is that this is not a completely correct response by everyone.

As a full Jew, my own ingrained prejudices from birth is also to be alarmed and offended by Lore's joke. But, from personal experience with poeple of other cultures, namely First Natives and Indians, I am aware that this symbol that I personally despise does not stand for what it means to me to them. And there are comedies from Jews (Mel Brooks, the Three Stooges, Dani Levy, etc.) that feature Nazi and swastika humor.

I am personally far more offended by the "What's the big deal?" attitudes I've seen in response to MsMary's protest.

We'll have to agree to disagree I guess. It's not that it's not a big deal, but a question of diversity.

[Elfgirl]

Crikey! You guys gotta understand the whole Aussie "take the piss" thing (inherited from the Poms, I might add, who are the greatest of piss-takers!)

If you can't laugh about it, you just never get over it! Please, in the interest of forum harmony, get over it.

I grew up in Aus as a child of immigrants. I always got teased about my Italian heritage. I just gave back as good as I got (in fact, went one better) and thereafter ended the teasing. After a while, you don't give a toss anymore. Fair cop that you DO, msMary, and I'm sure that now we know this, we will tread softly to avoid offence. Therein lies the problem of the "typed commentary" - what was probably typed as a tongue-in-cheek remark is so easily misconstrued by the reader.

Happens, but you gotta realise that the intent perhaps was totally the reverse of what you interpreted.

[Vain]

Crikey! You guys gotta understand the whole Aussie "take the piss" thing (inherited from the Poms, I might add, who are the greatest of piss-takers!)

If you can't laugh about it, you just never get over it! Please, in the interest of forum harmony, get over it.

I grew up in Aus as a child of immigrants. I always got teased about my Italian heritage. I just gave back as good as I got (in fact, went one better) and thereafter ended the teasing. After a while, you don't give a toss anymore. Fair cop that you DO, msMary, and I'm sure that now we know this, we will tread softly to avoid offence. Therein lies the problem of the "typed commentary" - what was probably typed as a tongue-in-cheek remark is so easily misconstrued by the reader.

Happens, but you gotta realise that the intent perhaps was totally the reverse of what you interpreted.

You're italian?

[danlo]

M: (Knock)
A: Come in.
M: Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?
A: I told you once.
M: No you haven't.
A: Yes I have.
M: When?
A: Just now.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: You didn't
A: I did!
M: You didn't!
A: I'm telling you I did!
M: You did not!!
A: Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?
M: Oh, just the five minutes.
A: Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did.
M: You most certainly did not.
A: Look, let's get this thing clear; I quite definitely told you.
M: No you did not.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: You didn't.
A: Did.
M: Oh look, this isn't an argument.
A: Yes it is.
M: No it isn't. It's just contradiction.
A: No it isn't.
M: It is!
A: It is not.
M: Look, you just contradicted me.
A: I did not.
M: Oh you did!!
A: No, no, no.
M: You did just then.
A: Nonsense!
M: Oh, this is futile!
A: No it isn't.
M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!

A: Yes it is!
M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
(short pause)
A: No it isn't.
M: It is.
A: Not at all.
M: Now look.
A: (Rings bell) Good Morning.
M: What?
A: That's it. Good morning.
M: I was just getting interested.
A: Sorry, the five minutes is up.
M: That was never five minutes!
A: I'm afraid it was.
M: It wasn't.
Pause
A: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue anymore.
M: What?!
A: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.
M: Yes, but that was never five minutes, just now. Oh come on!
A: (Hums)
M: Look, this is ridiculous.
A: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!
M: Oh, all right.
(pays money)
A: Thank you.
short pause
M: Well?
A: Well what?
M: That wasn't really five minutes, just now.
A: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid.
M: I just paid!
A: No you didn't.
M: I DID!
A: No you didn't.
M: Look, I don't want to argue about that.
A: Well, you didn't pay.
M: Aha. If I didn't pay, why are you arguing? I Got you!
A: No you haven't.
M: Yes I have. If you're arguing, I must have paid.
A: Not necessarily. I could be arguing in my spare time.
M: Oh I've had enough of this.
A: No you haven't.
M: Oh Shut up.

[Cameraman Jenn]

HAHAHAHAHH!!!! I love Monty Python...

[Elfgirl]

You're italian?

Certamente. Sono nata in Australia, da genitori italiani (del nord!)

I no speaka da good italian, but I get by...

[Vain]

Well my Italian is limited to pronto, bella, and a variety of swear words Got taught them by an italian firm I used to do business with. spent some time in Milan and Trieste with them - got horrendously trashed in Trieste but otherwise it was a fabulous place and I'll head out there one day again.

[danlo]

Mario: Back to the Start
I almost never say this, but air quotes, then "LOL."

Created by Jack Bliss, he had this to say about the video, "This is my very first sprite movie starring the characters from Super Mario World featuring the music by Coldplay.
This is a movie that speaks against racism, discrimination, and war, made in a way I hope that people of all age groups and Mario fans can understand, treasure, and pass it [sic] on...I really enjoyed this game as a child and I hope I can share some of its magic with you in a meaningful way."


In the animation, Mario remembers that, many and many a year ago, in a kingdom by the sea (Yoshi's Island), he had a childhood affair with an anthropomorphic evil mushroom. Mario realizes the evil of his xenophobic ways. Then he starts running through a counterclock world, retracing his steps, trying to unite the races of the Mushroom Kingdom,

You got to love any Mario movie that ends with this impassioned plea for tolerance:

Unfortunately, unlike the Mario World, we don't GET second chances... The damages left by the likes of Adolf Hitler by war and Osama by terrorism are forever... Racism hatred and discrimination were the prime fuels to provoke and unite their Armies of death and mass destruction.
A single tear of profound compassion and understanding trickles down my cheek. Florian Eckhardt

(I stole this from Kotaku)

[Wyldewode]

So I know I said down with love and all, but I was only joking! Glad that everything is worked out now.

And Monty Python is the bestest.

[MsMary]

As a full Jew, my own ingrained prejudices from birth is also to be alarmed and offended by Lore's joke. But, from personal experience with poeple of other cultures, namely First Natives and Indians, I am aware that this symbol that I personally despise does not stand for what it means to me to them. And there are comedies from Jews (Mel Brooks, the Three Stooges, Dani Levy, etc.) that feature Nazi and swastika humor.

I am personally far more offended by the "What's the big deal?" attitudes I've seen in response to MsMary's protest.

We'll have to agree to disagree I guess. It's not that it's not a big deal, but a question of diversity.

You know what, Menolly? I am not so much personally offended by such jokes as I am aware that many other people can be offended and hurt by such jokes. The fact that others, including Jewish comedians, have made those kinds of jokes does not make it right or less hurtful to the people who lost their family members in the Holocaust.

[Avatar]

You know MsMary, while I certainly appreciate the depth of feeling here, I think that if you personally weren't offended, (or at least that offended, although you said you were), then the responses were even less appropriate than I thought they were originally.

Of course there are times and places and contexts in which even the bare mention of such a thing is considered offensive and rightly so.

However, I think that the context is an important factor to take into consideration, and in this particular case, it is clear from the context that no insult or slight or slur was intended at all. And I'm frankly a little surprised that this has gotten so serious.

At the absolute worst, this sudden encounter with the word can be taken by people with the personal experience as a reminder, certainly a painful one, of sad times indeed. But that is all. To even imply that the person who authored that reminder did so with the intention of reminding people of that, is unjust.

--A

[MsMary]

All I said, initially, was that I didn't think a joke about a swastika was funny and that I didn't think a swastika was something to joke about. That's the part I wasn't personally offended about. However, I am very aware that many people find this type of humor particularly unfunny, and I was trying to raise people's awareness about this. I don't think context makes the least bit of difference in whether it's funny or not, frankly. If other things weren't said later, I wouldn't have said anything beyond my initial post about it.

But, as birdandbear also said, I was offended - personally offended - by the cavalier "what's the big deal" attitude of some people. I still find that attitude to be very insensitive.

And I never said or implied that the person who originally authored the reply did so with the intention of reminding people of a sad past. I said that I thought he made the joke without thinking about it much one way or the other, and without really realizing how some people might take it or be hurt by it.

Loremaster and I have already made our peace over this, both publicly and privately.

[Avatar]

Glad to hear it.

I'm afraid that in a certain sense I share the "what's the big deal" attitude, although not in the sense that you meant, in as far as I can see how it can be offensive, but rather in the sense that it shouldn't be offensive in this particular instance.

*bows*

--A

[matrixman]

Matrixman! Lock this topic and all other topics started by anyone who has posted in it! It's your modly duty!

I see you're jesting, but that option is actually still open.

However, since MsMary has stated that she and Lore have made peace, I suppose there is no need for me to get dramatic myself. I think all sides have stated their cases articulately. Nothing more can be asked.

So let's just move along. Thanks.

And a special thank you to fellow mods Creator, Menolly and Avatar for stepping up to the plate and calmly mediating this matter while I was busy elsewhere.

[Avatar]

Hey, I had nothing to do with it. Other than an insurmountable urge to make sure my opinion was heard. Creds to Menolly & Creator.

--A

[Elfgirl]

yeah. This place is becoming too Tank-like...

[Wyldewode]

No. . . not TWO Tanks!

[Avatar]

Mwahahahaha...Mwahahahaha

--A

[matrixman]

Clearly, what we need is not an Anti-Valentine's Day but an Anti-Tank Day.

(aims rubber chicken cannon at Think Tank territorial border)