These are two of the most, if not the, infamous men in history. Much speculation has gone into theorizing who was the more intelligent, or who was more “evil”, of the two.
Both of these men accomplished, and failed at many things with the respective countries they led, and they both had a massive impact on the 20th century. So there are a variety of questions I wish to pose; who was worse? Who was more intelligent? Who had the larger impact in world and domestic politics? How much alike were they?
Personally, I find that Stalin is the man with the greater intelligence. Whereas Hitler failed completely before he died; both domestically and in regards to foreign policy; Stalin succeeded in taking his country from the brink of poverty too the joint most powerful country at the time of his death. Remember, there were only two superpowers at the time of Stalin’s death, the USA and SU; the fact that he carved out that fate for the SU symbolizes his superiority to Hitler in many ways.
Though many will remember Stalin as the man who killed over 30million of his own people; who brought nothing but disaster to the SU and all of it’s people; and gave them much the same fate as Hitler did to his own people.
What do you think?
Stalin and Hitler
Stalin was responsible for far more deaths, and the Soviet Union was far more oppressive than Germany. Hitler certainly provokes a stronger reaction than Stalin due to the Holocaust, but Uncle Joe was clearly the evilest man of the 20th century.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Well you can't really argue with results. Both Hitler and Stalin did manage to create some positive things within their countries. The USSR was a superpower. Germany did control a vast portion of Europe. So yeah, there were definite positive results from both men, and both were either intelligent or surrounded themselves with intelligent people.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Lord Mhoram
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I don't know as much about Stalin as I do about Hitler, but regarding Hitler, I think he's given a lot more credit than he's due sometimes. Don't get me wrong, he's enormously important in European and world history, and he and his regime itself initiated a lot of it on their own - but I do hear the whole "Hitler was brilliant" thing quite frequently. Have you ever read Mein Kampf? Leaving aside the absolutely hideous, hateful things he said, I wasn't impressed. (I've only read excerpts.) What I mean to say is, he comes across in English as not a very good writer. I've heard that even in German, he wasn't all that skilled either. Writing is by no means the only judge of intelligence, but it's a clear indicator that perhaps he isn't the genius he's sometimes purported to be. As for propaganda, he was shrewd enough to utilize a time honored method of inciting people to blindly get angry - anti-Semitism. But even there, he had Goebbels to help him out (who was undoubtedly brilliant). Whenever he interfered with the decision making of his military commanders, it was disastrous for Germany.
Now, all that being said, he was extremely charismastic and this lent itself very well to his speeches. They are disturbingly awe-inspiring.
Now, regarding both Stalin and Hitler: I think the better question, Darth, is what you sort of alluded to - were they truly evil? Or were they just hateful men who had no qualms about exterminating entire races of people for their own political and military goals?
Now, all that being said, he was extremely charismastic and this lent itself very well to his speeches. They are disturbingly awe-inspiring.
Now, regarding both Stalin and Hitler: I think the better question, Darth, is what you sort of alluded to - were they truly evil? Or were they just hateful men who had no qualms about exterminating entire races of people for their own political and military goals?
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Avatar
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I think they were just men who saw their goals as being more important than the lives of countless millions. Men with an unshakeable faith in their own opinion who were willing to impose it by force.
As Cail said, both turned out "positive" events from the perspective of their goals. Evil...well, in a non-religious sense, yes sure. They harmed people unnecessarily. (Of course, on the other hand, they implicitly believed that it was necessary.)
--A
As Cail said, both turned out "positive" events from the perspective of their goals. Evil...well, in a non-religious sense, yes sure. They harmed people unnecessarily. (Of course, on the other hand, they implicitly believed that it was necessary.)
--A
I would say that this is at least one fairly good definition of evil:
On the original question, I think that both Hitler and Stalin did accomplish a fair bit for their countries, but I don't think this necessarily speaks to their intelligence so much as to the fact that they were despots. Democracy is inefficient by nature; the voters will by and large back what they see as being in their own interests, and leaders who ignore what the public want in favour of their own vision tend to find themselves being voted out, which makes it difficult to get long term or unpopular measures enacted. Conversely, being a tyrant means never having to say you're sorry.
In my opinion "evil" starts when we rank our needs and desires as more important than those of others...when we say that our good, or the success of our aims, is a sufficient reason to dismiss those of others - or ultimately to regard others themselves as dispensible to accomplish our goals.I think they were just men who saw their goals as being more important than the lives of countless millions. Men with an unshakeable faith in their own opinion who were willing to impose it by force.
On the original question, I think that both Hitler and Stalin did accomplish a fair bit for their countries, but I don't think this necessarily speaks to their intelligence so much as to the fact that they were despots. Democracy is inefficient by nature; the voters will by and large back what they see as being in their own interests, and leaders who ignore what the public want in favour of their own vision tend to find themselves being voted out, which makes it difficult to get long term or unpopular measures enacted. Conversely, being a tyrant means never having to say you're sorry.
...but in the morning, I will be sober
Good post and good point Gart.Oh sure, despotic rule is far more efficient than democratic rule. And I'm sure that few German citizens think about the slave labor employed as they hurl themselves down the Autobahnen. But the fact remains that the Reich was pretty big on public works.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
Sure, it's a sure-fire cure all.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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CovenantJr
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If you read the early manifestos of the Nazis, a lot of their (public) aims were actually very reasonable, even just. They had a lot of good ideas and worked wonders reconstructing Germany from the near-ruination it suffered after the lunacy of the Treaty of Versailles. Sadly, they went too far beyond this.
As for Hitler himself: As I understand it, he was a charismatic man, a man of great personal power, and, by extension, a great leader. It is true, though, that much of his success resulted from the immense talent with which he surrounded himself. Goebbels, for example, coached him on public speaking; without this coaching, Hitler would have retained the image of an enthusiastic but slightly comical zealot he acquired in the early days of his Nazi membership. I think he was more a figurehead leader than a thinker; like a king who inspires his troops by leading from the front, but needs a skilled general to actually run the war. As has already been observed, Hitler's own tactical prowess was distinctly lacking.
On the question of whether he was evil: I think he simply crossed a line. I tend not to believe in objective evil, and I'm inclined to agree with Gart that placing one's own desires or perceived needs above those of numerous others is a route to evil. I don't, however, believe that this was necessarily the case for Hitler. From what I know of him, I'm inclined to think he genuinely believed he was doing the best for Germany, and that this greater good required sacrifices. This is something all leaders face sooner or later - sacrificing the good of some to achieve a greater victory. There are many decisions taken by various leaders that could be seen as evil if we look at them in the light of how much was sacrificed. The difference with Hitler is his judgement; his extreme nationalism led to him to accept as necessary - even desirable, in some cases - sacrifices that outweighed the good that resulted.
To finish off, here's a little bit of trivia: 'Hitler' is a made-up name. Had Adolf Hitler's grandfather not changed his name, the world's most notorious dictator would have been Adolf Hiedler. More comically, Hitler's father was illegitimate and for much of his life bore the name Schickelgruber. Somehow, the great Nazi dictator Adolf Schickelgruber doesn't seem quite so menacing...
As for Hitler himself: As I understand it, he was a charismatic man, a man of great personal power, and, by extension, a great leader. It is true, though, that much of his success resulted from the immense talent with which he surrounded himself. Goebbels, for example, coached him on public speaking; without this coaching, Hitler would have retained the image of an enthusiastic but slightly comical zealot he acquired in the early days of his Nazi membership. I think he was more a figurehead leader than a thinker; like a king who inspires his troops by leading from the front, but needs a skilled general to actually run the war. As has already been observed, Hitler's own tactical prowess was distinctly lacking.
On the question of whether he was evil: I think he simply crossed a line. I tend not to believe in objective evil, and I'm inclined to agree with Gart that placing one's own desires or perceived needs above those of numerous others is a route to evil. I don't, however, believe that this was necessarily the case for Hitler. From what I know of him, I'm inclined to think he genuinely believed he was doing the best for Germany, and that this greater good required sacrifices. This is something all leaders face sooner or later - sacrificing the good of some to achieve a greater victory. There are many decisions taken by various leaders that could be seen as evil if we look at them in the light of how much was sacrificed. The difference with Hitler is his judgement; his extreme nationalism led to him to accept as necessary - even desirable, in some cases - sacrifices that outweighed the good that resulted.
To finish off, here's a little bit of trivia: 'Hitler' is a made-up name. Had Adolf Hitler's grandfather not changed his name, the world's most notorious dictator would have been Adolf Hiedler. More comically, Hitler's father was illegitimate and for much of his life bore the name Schickelgruber. Somehow, the great Nazi dictator Adolf Schickelgruber doesn't seem quite so menacing...
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Loredoctor
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Great post.Gart wrote:I would say that this is at least one fairly good definition of evil:
In my opinion "evil" starts when we rank our needs and desires as more important than those of others...when we say that our good, or the success of our aims, is a sufficient reason to dismiss those of others - or ultimately to regard others themselves as dispensible to accomplish our goals.I think they were just men who saw their goals as being more important than the lives of countless millions. Men with an unshakeable faith in their own opinion who were willing to impose it by force.
On the original question, I think that both Hitler and Stalin did accomplish a fair bit for their countries, but I don't think this necessarily speaks to their intelligence so much as to the fact that they were despots. Democracy is inefficient by nature; the voters will by and large back what they see as being in their own interests, and leaders who ignore what the public want in favour of their own vision tend to find themselves being voted out, which makes it difficult to get long term or unpopular measures enacted. Conversely, being a tyrant means never having to say you're sorry.
Waddley wrote:your Highness Sir Dr. Loredoctor, PhD, Esq, the Magnificent, First of his name, Second Cousin of Dragons, White-Gold-Plate Wielder!
Great posts, all.
Many regard Stalin as worse than Hitler because of the body count that Stalin was accountable for; however I see little moral difference between killing 30million as opposed to 20million; they're both wrongful, vile acts - just because one is more in quantity; does not mean to say it is less in morality.
Many regard Stalin as worse than Hitler because of the body count that Stalin was accountable for; however I see little moral difference between killing 30million as opposed to 20million; they're both wrongful, vile acts - just because one is more in quantity; does not mean to say it is less in morality.
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Holsety
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Doesn't Adam Smith say something like "blah blah blah Gov't get yourself out of econ but create thee some public works"?Cail wrote:Sure, it's a sure-fire cure all.
Simply in terms of impact...the holocaust was influential in creating israel (major part of middle east politic nowadays), people compare things to Hitler more often than Stalin, the swastika is more offensive than the hammer and sickle, and calling someone a nazi is worse than calling them a commie. That is, the public feels this way; therefore, I think Hitler and nazi germany were more 'influential' in that they've created a sort of devil-on-earth image towards which we'll be forever able to focus hate.
I feel like I don't know enough about Stalin to make a "judgement" between the two.
A bit of light-hearted fun:
xkcd.com/c29.html
I think that's conditioning though. It irks me to no end seeing teenagers wandering around wearing Hammer and Sickle (or Che Guevara) t-shirts when I know that they have no clue what they mean. They'd (probably) never wear a Hitler or Swastika t-shirt, but they have no clue that what they're wearing is analogous.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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Holsety
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Ya, but I think that while the actions of teens may be stupid, it's important to note the difference in views of Communism and Fascism.Cail wrote:I think that's conditioning though. It irks me to no end seeing teenagers wandering around wearing Hammer and Sickle (or Che Guevara) t-shirts when I know that they have no clue what they mean. They'd (probably) never wear a Hitler or Swastika t-shirt, but they have no clue that what they're wearing is analogous.
Oh absolutely. Fascism is reviled, communism is embraced. Everyone seems to forget that Che was a butcher.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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Prebe
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I think what Holsety is getting at is, that there is nothing written in the communist ideology about butchering whole ethnic groups.
Wearing a t-shirt with an image of Stalin might be analogous to wearing one with a picture of Hitler. But wearing a t-shirt with hammer and sickle is quite different from wearing one with a svastika (assuming, of course, that the svastika is symbolising national socialist ideology).
Wearing a t-shirt with an image of Stalin might be analogous to wearing one with a picture of Hitler. But wearing a t-shirt with hammer and sickle is quite different from wearing one with a svastika (assuming, of course, that the svastika is symbolising national socialist ideology).
"I would have gone to the thesaurus for a more erudite word."
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