What about the Illearth War?

[Fist and Faith]

I think my best thoughts about her begin here:
kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=23683#23683

[Herem]

Thanks for the welcome, all.

"Accepting that which is given honours the giver".

Elena seems to divide opinion here, tragically misguided and ironically close to Kevin...the peoples of the Land have taken an Oath basically to avoid repeating his mistakes, but does her vow to cause "the death of Fangthane" at the Ranyhyn ceremony supercede this? The moments when Covenant sees her "other sight" are terrifying, as is the moment when she suddenly believes that he can use the white gold to command Amok to reveal his power.

However, TC is complicit in her downfall by his bargain, and by the way in which he compels Bannor and Morin to reveal the name of Command. In a way he is complicit in this from her conception, as Triock says in TPTP

"You are not to blame, she was flawed from birth"

. He is apparently trying to assuage TC's guilt for once, but why is she flawed? Due to the violence of her conception, the fact that she is not wholly of the Land?

Just two more words sum up why TIW is so amazing:

Caerroil Wildwood.

On the Illearth Stone:

"It was a great evil. I have destroyed it."

On Fleshharrower:

"He is garrotted."

Just like that.

[Tjol]

I know a lot of people seem to rate the 2nd Chronicles and The Wounded Land in particular, but what about the Illearth War?

I thought that had to be at least one fo the best books in the series.

Where LFB began telling us of the righ history of the Land and the Lords, TIW picks it up and expands it. We learn more of the Vloodguard and their complex ideals. We see more of the Lords in action and travel the length of the Land, learning more about it and its people and hidden powers. We also get to know more intimately Covenant's struggle to come to terms with the Land and the crimes he has committed. Surely this has to be the keystone book of the series?

Illearth is certianly one of the two best, if not the best of the books so far. The contrasting tragedy and resilience is so powerfully felt, from the first attrition that has to be accepted by Hile Troy, when he realise Foul's Army has a head start. The lord who the Rahnyn refused, possibly only because it would inspire him to be something greater if he was refused. The horrors at Seareach. Hile Troy's weakness of person faced with the Vortex (one of the cruelest moments in the book, next to Elena's defeat in victory). Hile Troy's redemption at Caer Caerval. Elena's fury. Elena's kindness. Elena as a paradox of so many things in general.

The Wounded Land is also a favorite, so much is covered though, and so many characters are introduced that are recalled in entirety when revisiting them in The Wounded Land, which helps it out a lot.

[SleeplessOne]

just finished the Illearth War today for the 2nd time ..

I well recall the first time I read it; suddenly the Land opened up and seemed a much larger world ..

having also recently re-read LFB, I've come to appreciate the depth of beauty SRD described in the Land within that 1st book .. Atiaran and Covenant's initial journey is such a quiet, mournful trek, and the introduction of the Waymeets, Andelain and the Wraiths paint the Land as a place worth saving. I disagree that TIW shows the Land in any more healthy a state than LFB.

But the scope of the Land increases dramatically in TIW; LFB's mission for the Staff of Law was perilous, but the threat of Foul's army, the slaughter of the Giants and Elena's capacity for destruction raise the stakes substantially.
The Lords are more potent and vibrant, the Lords of LFB-era were verging on ancient, Shetra, Trevor (hehe), Loeyra, Amatin, Mhoram, Hyrim and Callindrill are competent and able-bodied, more vital than the Lords of LFB.
And despite the split opinions, I found Elena to be a compelling figure; *before* we're made aware of her tragic decisions, she is portrayed as such a magnetic character; the gradual revelation of her fatal flaw really affected me upon my initial reading of TIW.

Then there's Lord Hyrim's mission to Seareach, what a nightmare !
Told entirely through flashbacks, it prooves to be one of the most chilling tales in the chronicles. The confrontation with Kinsslaughterer as he attempts to raise a tsunami is exhilarating.

The journey of Elena, Covenant, Morin and Bannor to Melenkurion Skyweir under the guidance of Amok is riveting too; Elena's twisted love for Covenant and TC's rare lapses into tenderness contrast with the danger in her gaze and the duplicity of Covenant's bargain - they're two doomed people despite the bond they feel for one another.
The place where Elena drank the Blood of the Earth (Earthroot ?) is a magnificent setting also.

And lastly, Hile Troy's steady loss of control is a brutal bit of writing, the guy literally can't see how ill-equipped he is to cope with the Despiser's machinations and his own flaws; his descent into near-hysteria (knocking a Bloodguard out with a rock after using the ol' "hey look over there" trick was the pinnacle of his madness surely haha) is a fitting price for a man too willing to accept the sacrifices, too happy to accept a miracle without exploring it's implications ...

TIW really did mark the point when I became convinced TCTC were going to be an amazing ride

[Dawngreeter]

I am also on my second time around these books and definitely one of my favorite scenes of all time is this one -

Behind him, Thomin jumped up to carry out his last duty. With one kick, the Bloodguard broke Lord Verement's back. Instantly, the Lord fell dead. Thomin's face was taut with murder as he sprang again at Fleshharrower's throat. This time, the Bloodguard's attack was so swift and ruthless that it broke past the Raver's defenses. He caught Fleshharrower, dug his fingers into the Giant's neck. For a moment, the Giant could not tear him away. He ground his fingers into that thick throat with such passion that Fleshharrower could not break his hold. But then the Raver brought the Stone to his aid. With one blast, he burned Thomin's bones to ash with in him. The Bloodguard collapsed in a heap of structureless flesh. Then for a time Fleshharrower seemed to go mad. Roaring like a cataclysm, he jumped and stamped on Thomin's form until the Bloodguard's bloody remains were crushed into the grass.

Killer scene! I love how pissed Fleshharrower gets knowing that he couldn't take care of a berzerker Thomin without cheating .

[jwaneeta]

The Illearth War had amazing energy, momentum and character development. After Lord Foul's Bane I was going to give up, but The Illearth War completely hooked me.


*curtseys* Yes, I'm back, messing up posts again. I love you guys. *blows kisses*

[SleeplessOne]

The Illearth War had amazing energy, momentum and character development. After Lord Foul's Bane I was going to give up, but The Illearth War completely hooked me.

agree jwaneeta, the middle 3rd of LFB was a struggle for me too the first couple of times I read it - by comparison I sped through TIW hungry to discover the fate of Covenant and the Land ..

I've learned to love LFB after re-reading and persisting, but TIW took no such effort on my part, it sucked me in and didnt spit me out untill the final page ...

[Kil Tyme]

Yes, TIW is by far my fav, too. I get almost sick to my stomach at how much misery and pain the various (extreemly well developed) characters (and the Warward) go through throughout the book. One of my fav parts not yet mentioned is TC's story, while viewing the rock garden, of the leper women he knew and the effect of its telling had on each of the Lords.

Those "tales" from the bloodguard on the failed mission to Seareach: not only are they facinating and even almost frightening to read, but it also marks the first time that perhaps the Land is indeed real, or at least suggests that possibility to the reader.

And Lord Hyrim, we hardly got to know ya. I wish we got to know more of him. Lord Mhoram is most beloved, but Hyrim is a close second to me.

[iQuestor]

Kil -- have you read Gilden-Fire? you will learn a lot more about Hyrim's strength in that excerpt. He is indeed a much deeper character that the jovial Lord he appears to be at first.

[SleeplessOne]

Those "tales" from the bloodguard on the failed mission to Seareach: not only are they facinating and even almost frightening to read, but it also marks the first time that perhaps the Land is indeed real, or at least suggests that possibility to the reader.

excellent point; although the shift to Mhoram's perspective during 'Seer and Oracle' also gave me hints as to the Land's authenticity earlier in the book ..

[Kil Tyme]

Kil -- have you read Gilden-Fire?

Yes I have and very true. Much more about Hyrim, but what I mean't was even more. I really liked that character. And to tie up the last few posts, I think I read that the reason the Gilden-Fire chapter wasn't in the final TIW novel was because it was a tale of the bloodguard that was not being "told" to TC like the other two Tales were; meaning that that tale shows without a doubt that the Land was real.

[Relayer]

Kil -- have you read Gilden-Fire?

Yes I have and very true. Much more about Hyrim, but what I mean't was even more. I really liked that character. And to tie up the last few posts, I think I read that the reason the Gilden-Fire chapter wasn't in the final TIW novel was because it was a tale of the bloodguard that was not being "told" to TC like the other two Tales were; meaning that that tale shows without a doubt that the Land was real.

Ah, but the 2nd tale was not told to Covenant. IIRC only Troy and Mhoram heard it. Remember that in TPTP, Covenant didn't know what had happened to Foamfollower's people.

[dlbpharmd]

Kil -- have you read Gilden-Fire?

Yes I have and very true. Much more about Hyrim, but what I mean't was even more. I really liked that character. And to tie up the last few posts, I think I read that the reason the Gilden-Fire chapter wasn't in the final TIW novel was because it was a tale of the bloodguard that was not being "told" to TC like the other two Tales were; meaning that that tale shows without a doubt that the Land was real.

The reason that GF was cut was because it was in the POV of a Land based character, Korik. Lester del Rey felt that the chapter undermined Covenant's unbelief. The only other POV we see in TIW was that of Hile Troy's.

By the time that TPTP came along, and we read chapter's from Mhoram's POV, Covenant's unbelief no longer mattered.

[SleeplessOne]

The only other POV we see in TIW was that of Hile Troy's.

I thought I detected a shift in POV to a Land-based character (Mhoram) earlier; in the chapter 'Seer and Oracle' - Covenant is present, but during the conversation the narration rests upon Mhoram's thoughts and reflections -

Mhoram felt the pressure between them build, and decided that the time had come to ask questions of his own.

It was in Mhoram's heart to tell Covenant that he went too far.

after a time Mhoram decided to risk another question

this change in POV doesnt 'prove' the Land's veracity as much as Tull's tale, due to Covenant's presence ... but the shift was the first sign I detected that the Land didn't neccessarily depend on Covenant's consciousness to attain validity ..

[Endymion9]

The 2nd book in the first two series were both my favorites. The IllEarth War and The One Tree were each the richest books of their respective series.

In each we got to learn more about the "mythology" of the Land and had incredible encouters.

In IllEarth we had Kevin back from the dead. I just went "wow" at that whole sequence. Probably the first time my jaw dropped while reading a book.

In the One Tree we had the Bloodguard vs the Sandgorgon. We had TC vs the possessed baby. We had the Elohim. Once again wow!

[variol son]

The only other POV we see in TIW was that of Hile Troy's.

I thought I detected a shift in POV to a Land-based character (Mhoram) earlier; in the chapter 'Seer and Oracle' - Covenant is present, but during the conversation the narration rests upon Mhoram's thoughts and reflections -

Mhoram felt the pressure between them build, and decided that the time had come to ask questions of his own.

It was in Mhoram's heart to tell Covenant that he went too far.

after a time Mhoram decided to risk another question

this change in POV doesnt 'prove' the Land's veracity as much as Tull's tale, due to Covenant's presence ... but the shift was the first sign I detected that the Land didn't neccessarily depend on Covenant's consciousness to attain validity ..

There are two chapters from Mhoram's point of view in The Illearth War - the last chapter of Part One where has has a long conversation with Covenant after the ur-Lord returns from Glimmermere, and the last chapter of Part Two where he is trying to summon Caerroil Wildwood to save the Warward at Troy's behest.

According to the foreword of Gilden-Fire, having these chapters written from Mhoram's point of view doesn't completely undermine Covenant's unbelief as either the Unbeliever or the Warmark (each a character from the "real" world) accompanies him. There were no "real" world characters on Korik's mission to Seareach.

[SleeplessOne]

According to the foreword of Gilden-Fire, having these chapters written from Mhoram's point of view doesn't completely undermine Covenant's unbelief as either the Unbeliever or the Warmark (each a character from the "real" world) accompanies him. There were no "real" world characters on Korik's mission to Seareach.

I s'pose the key point from SRD there is that the shift to Mhorams POV doesnt completely undermine Covenant's unbelief - but with the narration of SRD suddenly providing insights into Mhorams thoughts and feelings, I felt like he was giving the reader/audience something to consider ... I agree and posted earlier that Covenant's presence during the initial shifts in POV doesnt really 'prove' anything, but for mine it was a 'hint' to the reader ...

but essentially I agree; the tales the Bloodguard tell of the Seareach quest
are remarkable due to Covenant's absence; how can the Land be a dream when characters are interacting without Covenant's knowledge or presence ?

Still, 'Seer and Oracle' was definitely the first 'clue' I got that the Land might be 'real'

[burgs]

See - this is exactly why I am more of a lurker here. Every time I come here I step away wanting to reread the whole series again.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I want to read other books!

[Avatar]

Haha, nice to see you around Burgs.

--A

[burgs]

Thanks, Avatar. You always remember me, and for that I am grateful.

You know, I might have a more interesting or creative "avatar" if I knew how to create one. I really haven't put much thought into it. If anyone sees this and deigns to illuminate - thanks. Otherwise, you'll have to suffer through photos of myself at various ages and my dogs (I recently posted two photos in the Album, and prior to this had a photo of myself up for a few years - I looked angrier than I truly am, but this is Thomas Covenant, after all, so perhaps all things should be ... pick an adjective). I've lived in Chicago for far too many years, and mid 2011 I'm out for warm and dry.

This particular dog (my avatar) is a Champion Irish Wolfhound, and I've never seen it's like. I'm guessing, just looking at it's humans (which you can't see - but if you live on the Isles, you know), that it weighs well over two hundred pounds, is a male, and probably stands around 36" at the withers, meaning that at it's shoulders (minus the entire head), it stands 36 inches tall. And it is one of the most docile dogs you'll ever come across. Irish Wolfhounds never attack because they just don't see the need to. They're larger than virtually every dog, and those that are heavier or larger than it, it can outrun. An ordinary Mastiff can outweigh a Wolfhound, but I'd love to see that race. Wolfhounds can take down an Elk.

For "might-enthusiasts", the obvious question here is - if the IW is so magnificent, what would it do against an American Pit Bull Terrier if so pitted? The answer is that the APBT would annihilate the IW if placed in a pit, even if the IW outweighed the APBT by 2x. That said, current IWs are cross-breeds of the breed that caused the wolf to be exterminated from the British Isles some two hundred years ago, and this is also the dog that caused the Romans to run in terror, calling it a lion, for it tore riders from horses in the early first century. Perhaps the original Wolfhound would be a match, but dogs fighting dogs is worthy of everyone involved (spectators included) serving very long prison sentences. And perhaps some beatings. Yes. Beatings. I might even volunteer to administer them. Yes, thinking about it, I would.

The IW we know today is not the giant that existed two thousand years ago. If you've seen an IW today, can you imagine what it was like two thousand years ago?? Think of the dog that is my avatar - 36" at the shoulders. Take a tape measure and measure up 36" from the floor. That's where its shoulders end, and its head begins. The head adds another twelve inches, at least. Usually more. And the length of its jaw - good lord. I'm nearly tempted to convert.

What's REALLY interesting is to study wolves (of any continent), from 10,000 years forward, and try to dot the i's and cross the t's in evolution.
Because that's what we're given. 10,000 years, from a 170 pound wolf to a five found Yorkshire Terrier. I'm not kidding. I can accept an amoeba to a human in a few thousand years (perhaps a few million or billion if need be), but I can't buy 10,000 years from a wolf to a Yorkie. Other than the beak of the finch, we have no evidence. (If we do, let me know!)

And that's all they'll give us. Ten thousand years, and no specifics.

I don't buy it - and I believe 100% in evolution. We (myself included) have a lot to learn.

Geek out.