Runes, Part 2, Chapter 11 - The Masters of the Land

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Runes, Part 2, Chapter 11 - The Masters of the Land

Post by dlbpharmd »

Filling in for Variol Son……

I really feel like this chapter is too big for me, so please help me out here. This chapter is just HUGE, with so much going on – I’m a bit daunted…..

Linden has been asleep but is awakened by a knock on her door, and finds Liand and Galt waiting for her. Liand says:
The Voice of the Masters has summoned you. The time has come to speak of Anele’s imprisonment and of other matters.
Linden realizes her health-sense is gone again, blunted by Kevin’s Dirt. Galt tells her that the Demondim have withdrawn from Revelstone.

Linden retrieves the Staff but realizes that without her health-sense she cannot feel the power of the Staff. She realizes that she has never used power without health-sense to guide her. But Liand helps her to see that she has to be able to regain her health-sense through the Staff. Hugging the Staff to her heart, she feels the warmth of the wood and her health-sense returns. She uses the Staff to restore Liand’s Landsight as well.

Linden, Liand and Galt leave the apartment and walk to the Close, to meet with Handir and be reunited with their companions. Linden has never seen the Close (the Banefire was in the Sacred Enclosure.) The Close was where Trell performed his Ritual of Desecration, and that will have relevance here again.

When they enter the Close, the Ramen come to meet them, and but they too are blinded by Kevin’s Dirt. Linden uses the Staff to restore their sight. Mahrtiir turns to confront the Masters:
Sleepless ones, your purpose here has no meaning. Doubtless you will require the Ringthane to defend her actions and intentions. Stave has promised a reckoning, has he not? And you will attempt to account for your mistreatment of sad Anele, who harms no one. But your words and your choices are empty.

The Ranyhyn have accepted the Ringthane. More, they have honored her, bowing their heads when they have never bowed to any living being. And in her name they have likewise accepted all of her companions, not excluding Anele. Indeed, at their will they have been ridden by Ramen, a thing which no Ramen has ever done before.

Sleepless ones, Bloodguard, you who have ridden so many Ranyhyn to their deaths, there is no more to be said. No more! All of your doubts and arrogance have been answered. If you will not serve the Ringthane, then you must set aside your Mastery, for you have declared your infidelity to the Land!
The Masters do not answer, and Linden restrains Mahrtiir, and goes to the floor of the Close to meet the Masters. After a few opening words, Handir speaks:
Then I bid you further welcome to the Close of Revelstone, where in ages long past the Council of Lords gathered to consider the perils of their times. We have selected this to be our meeting place because it has been harmed by despair and Earthpower…..here Trell Atiaran-mate performed a Ritual of Desecration which nearly brought about the ruins of Lord’s Keep. The outcome of his mad grief is written in this wounded stone. Here you may behold clearly the reasons which have led us to assume the Mastery of the Land. You stand upon the consequences of mortal power and passion…..It is here that you will be accused. Here you will make answer as you are able. And here the judgment of the Masters will be rendered.
Linden agrees to hear them, and soon Stave steps forward. He says that she is indeed Linden Avery the Chosen, and that when he at first learned who she was, he offered the support of the Masters against Corruption, but:
She has responded with unfailing defiance. At every turn, she has acted against my counsel.
Stave admits that through Linden’s defiance the Ranyhyn and Ramen are found to be alive, and the Staff has been regained. However, through her defiance they encountered Esmer, created a new Fall and then ran into Demondim and allowed them to come forward in time. But:
However, the greatest accusation is this. She has a son who has been captured by Corruption. Her desire to redeem him is both proper and seemly. Yet her actions in his name have threatened the destruction of the Arch of Time…..

I am Haruchai and fear nothing. Yet I fear to inquire what else she may attempt in her son’s name.
Stave continues by saying that now she holds both white gold and the Staff, and both powers are too much for one person to bear:
As did Korik, Sill and Doar, she commands powers which exceed her……The first principle of our Mastery is that the uses of such power must ultimately serve Corruption. Is it not therefore certain that Linden Avery the Chosen will in the end become a servant of the Despiser?
As Stave concludes his case against her in lawyerly fashion, Linden is given a chance to respond, but she first asks how the Demondim are able to use the Illearth Stone. Handir replies that the Demondim are using a Fall and are accessing the Illearth Stone at its source, thousands of years ago. As Linden accepts his answer, she then asks if the Haruchai are capable of defeating the Demondim. Handir replies:
We cannot.
So much for “We suffice.”

(Aside – does Linden know the story of Korik, Sill and Doar? I remember that Covenant excluded that part of the story when he told the Search about Coercri.)

Linden and Handir continue their debate; Linden points out that the Masters need help against the Demondim, Handir refuses such help. Linden tries to show that by denying the people of the Land knowledge of their history and of Earthpower, the Haruchai have doomed the Land, but Handir denies any alternative to doing so.

Linden turns to the Humbled, and points out the futility of their maiming, and says that any potential sacrifice for the Land that the Masters might make would not be the equal of Brinn’s sacrifice at the One Tree. Handir’s response:
It is enough….Perhaps you have described us justly. Perhaps not. It alters nothing. Your recriminations do not pertain to the hazard of your actions in the Land. The truth remains that you have dared the destruction of all the Earth for the sake of your son. And no you do not assure us that the danger is past.
But Linden isn’t finished, and calls for Anele. She explains that his madness is controlled by the type of stone or ground on which he is standing. She also says that when he is standing on bare dirt or grasses, then he is possessed by others – the hot possessor, even Lord Foul. She proposes to use this to their advantage, to learn the activity of their enemies and to use Anele to plant false information in return. She disregards Liand’s protests at this plan. Handir does not accept this, and asks for evidence of Anele’s worth. Linden asks Anele to read the stone.

Anele says the stone is speaking of fathers – first Trell, who desecrated the stone of the Close in despair, then:
[The stone] speaks of the Elohim Kastenessen in his Durance, father to the malice of the merewives. His daughters are the Dancers of the Sea, and they swim the fathomless deeps in hunger and cruelty, insatiable for retribution, while their own scion is torment. Yet they know glee as well as hunger, for their father has broken his imprisonment, and at his behest the skurj which he once unwillingly restrained have unleashed their cunning and frenzy against the Land.

And in the same breath, it speaks of the Haruchai Cail, who succumbed to the merewives and fathered their scion. He also is remember with compassion, for only death has spared him from desolation at his son’s torment. Indeed, there is keening here on his behalf, keening and great sadness. He had been repudiated by his kindred, and his heart could not distinguish between its own yearning and the desire of the merewives. Yet that desire was malice.

And it speaks of Thomas Covenant, of the white gold wielder, whose daughter rent the Law of Death, and whose son is abroad in the Land, seeking such havoc that the bones of mountains tremble to contemplate it. For the wielder also this stone grieves, knowing him betrayed.

It speaks of Sunder son of Nassic, Graveler of Mithil Stonedown, who abandoned all that he had known for the sake of the wielder and the Land. Him the stone names because the son whom he brought back from death in Andelain lost the Staff of Law. In spite of this father’s valor and love, his legacy is sorrow.

Also it names the Despiser, who is the father of woe. Yet of him the stone says little. His darkness is beyond its ken.
After mentioning Berek, Anele can read no more from the stone, but he turns to Linden and begs her to tell him that he has not failed her. Linden embraces him, then addresses the Masters, and says:
I hope you’re satisfied. I’ve had enough of this. Don’t trust us, or do. Just make up your minds. I’m done trying to convince you.
Expecting Handir to respond, it is Stave that steps forward, and speaks:
.....I have named your perilous deeds. And I have said that I fear what you may do in your son’s name. I do fear it. For such reasons the Masters withhold their trust. Yet one other matter remains unaddressed….I have not yet spoken of the will of the Ranyhyn.
Stave tells about his refusal to take part in the horserite, but how Linden had shamed him and convinced him to drink from the tarn by telling him that the Ranyhyn had brought them there to warn them. When Stave drank from the waters, he was transformed. The Ranyhyn do fear for Linden and for her future, but Stave received no warnings; instead:
When I had drunk from the mind blending waters, I learned that the Ranyhyn laughed at me. Their laughter did not resemble Corruption’s, scornful and demeaning…..rather it was kindly….and affectionate. The Ranyhyn conceived no ill of me. They merely wished to express that they found amusement in my belief that our service is sufficient to the Land’s need. Our Mastery amuses them. In their sight, we are too small to comprehend or gauge all of the paths which may lead to triumph or Desecration. Though they are beings of Earthpower and mystery, they do not claim for themselves either the discernment or the courage to determine the Land’s defense.

At the same time, laughing, they desired me to grasp that they have declared themselves utterly to the service of the Chosen. They will bear her wheresoever she wills, until the end of days…..Indeed, the deem themselves fortunate to serve her. It is sooth that she may damn the Land. Yet the Ranyhyn believe that she will not. In their eyes, the Land’s life and hope require them to believe that she will not.
Linden detects a change in the atmosphere of the Close:
Stave’s kinsman were taking umbrage.
Stave continues:
Masters, you will decide as you must, according to your beliefs. Doubtless it is difficult for the people who gave birth to the Guardian of the One Tree to consider themselves small. But the Manethrall has spoken aptly, though he knew it not.

I have shared the horserite of the Ranyhyn, and have learned that we are not greater than they. Nor are we greater than the Ramen, who are content with service, and who do not attempt to alter that which lies beyond them.

Nor are we greater than this Stonedownor, the least of the Chosen’s companions, for he seeks only to join his cause with hers, and to partake in beauties and powers which we have withheld from him.
As he spoke, the assembled Masters watched him with darkness in their eyes….slowly the Humbled closed their fists.
Turning to face the Voice of the Masters, Stave concludes:
Because I have heard the laughter of the great horses, I will cast my lot with the Chosen. I cannot do less than the Ranyhyn. Whatever may befall her, I will endeavor to prove that I am the equal to my fears.
Linden hugged the Staff of Law to her chest with both arms, blinking furiously to hold back her tears. She wept too easily and did not mean to do so now.
At last – she breathed to herself. God, at last!

Stave of the Haruchai had brought her to Revelstone for this: so that he could declare himself in front of his people.

He had finally become her friend.

*** Sorry there were so many quotes; I tried to minimize quoting as much as possible but some of the dialogue is just too important. We learn some valuable information in this chapter, and to me this is the most moving chapter of ROTE.
Last edited by dlbpharmd on Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Avatar »

Gotta agree with that last. When Stave backed Linden you could almost feel the echoes of the Blood-Guard...more than that, of the Haruchai who, shorn of their vow, still aided her an Covenant in the 2nd Chrons.

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Post by Tulizar »

I loved this chapter for two reasons (both of which dlb mentioned.)

Anele gets an opportunity to prove his worth to the Masters. His mental issues are addressed and defended by Linden. She explains that Anele isn't exactly insane. He is simply more stable on solid rock. I smiled when Anele read the stone floor--how could the Masters dispute his value to Linden? Sure he might be possessed once in a while, but when he is in control of his powers, the man is amazing.


Stave's story was incredible. The Masters are not as important as they want everyone to believe. People can survive without them. They are too small to battle corruption. Their service to the Land might actually be hurting the Land. The best part is that Stave told his fellow Masters all of this. When he threw his lot in with Linden, he won me over.
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Post by dlbpharmd »

Agreed, Stave is a worthy successor to Bannor, Brinn and Cail. It's noteworthy that he seems to share the old Haruchai love of the Ranyhyn and would allow the great horses to influence him, yet Handir and the Masters didn't seem impressed to see Ranyhyn for the first time in 7000 years.

Anele's speech is so moving! Seeing the Close again - the description of ruined stone, and the mention of Trell, and then Sunder.....but what really sticks out is the off-hand mention of Covenant:
For the wielder also this stone grieves, knowing him betrayed.
Betrayed? How?

And also the reference to Cail, and the merewives' malice for him - I really think that their goal was to create something/someone like Esmer, who then help free Kastenessen.
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Post by iQuestor »

A question:
When they enter the Close, the Ramen come to meet them, and but they too are blinded by Kevin’s Dirt. Linden uses the Staff to restore their sight. Mahrtiir turns to confront the Masters:

Quote:
Sleepless ones, your purpose here has no meaning. Doubtless you will require the Ringthane to defend her actions and intentions. Stave has promised a reckoning, has he not? And you will attempt to account for your mistreatment of sad Anele, who harms no one. But your words and your choices are empty.

The Ranyhyn have accepted the Ringthane. More, they have honored her, bowing their heads when they have never bowed to any living being. And in her name they have likewise accepted all of her companions, not excluding Anele. Indeed, at their will they have been ridden by Ramen, a thing which no Ramen has ever done before.

Sleepless ones, Bloodguard, you who have ridden so many Ranyhyn to their deaths, there is no more to be said. No more! All of your doubts and arrogance have been answered. If you will not serve the Ringthane, then you must set aside your Mastery, for you have declared your infidelity to the Land!
Why does Handir refer to them as sleepless ones -- The need for sleep, as well as the need to eat, and normal aging and enhanced senses were all gifts of the Vow. and that was what, 3,000 years ago?

In TPTP, Bannor said to Covenant:
"Ur Lord, I say to you, the Vow was broken. Many things were broken. You were present. We could not -- ur-Lord, I am old now. I, Bannor, First Mark of the Blood Guard. I require sleep. and hot food. Thous I was bred for mountains, this cold penetrates my bones..."
after all, they aren't really bloodguard anymore. Or, is she referring to the past?
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Post by dlbpharmd »

It's Mahrtiir, actually - the terms 'sleepless ones' and 'Bloodguard' are, at least to the Ramen, derogatory. In short, the Ramen hate the Haruchai and constantly remind them of their broken Vow and failed fidelity.
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Post by iQuestor »

thanks Dlbpharmd -- that makes sense.
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Post by Relayer »

I love this chapter too. One thing I noticed right at the beginning:

As Linden comes out of sleep she thinks she hears Covenant's voice. And she thinks "if only he would leave her alone, all her woes would be gone."

WTF!!??? She's always been yearning for him - to be in his arms, for his guidance, etc. But in this moment, she wishes he would just go away. I don't know where this is going, but I think will become important.

------------

I've wondered why didn't Stave share his experience w/ the Masters in a way that was respectful of them. By doing it in front of everyone like this, he positions himself in a way that they can't help but disagree with. Never try to tell a Haruchai that he's wrong ... (of course it makes for a great scene). And, he shares it in words, not mind-speech... so the other Masters don't get to share the experience he had. If they had, I think they'd be much more likely to hear him. And he could've made it much easier for Linden if he'd told her sooner. I once asked SRD on the GI, but he didn't reply :-)

Also, I haven't re-read this far yet but at the point when the Masters were "taking umbrage" doesn't the light in the Close dim, and a breeze start blowing through? How does that happen? Have the Haruchai been able to develop some kind of power? Or is it another of those "their emotions were so overwhelming that the earthpower is starting to respond" moments...
Spoiler
Considering the description of what happens when Handir strikes Stave in the next chapter, I suspect they may have developed some form of power.
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Thanks for filling in, dlb. You get the ball rolling, and we'll ... uh ... jump on ... :? :D
dlbpharmd wrote:Linden retrieves the Staff but realizes that without her health-sense she cannot feel the power of the Staff. She realizes that she has never used power without health-sense to guide her.
Was that IT?!?! Was that the big mystery to the can/cannot of the white gold ring?
... she realized that she had never before been able to raise any kind of power without health-sense to guide her. Not during the collapse of Kevin's Watch; not when she had summoned the ur-viles to aid Sahah; not in the Verge of Wandering on Stave's behalf. On each occasion, she had been above the blinding shroud of Kevin's Dirt. In the rift, she had failed to find wild magic. And during her time with Thomas Covenant, she had never lacked percipience. In the past, Kevin's Dirt had not existed. And when she had used the Staff the previous day, her senses had still retained most of their discernment.
Now I have to go back and check all those scenes, see if being able to weild wild magic lines up with having a health-sense. I'm not so sure it always does ... but we have the explanation from the author. (No, I never caught on about this bit until now; that's why I like dissections.)

If Linden's powers flow through her percipience, then this makes perfect sense. If you close that door, you block her from her power. Which makes the intention of Kevin's Dirt something which must be pondered again. Like Esmer, it blocks Linden from her power, as if so designed.
"I am Haruchai and fear nothing. Yet I fear to inquire what else she may attempt in her son’s name."
There is the "Reckless Linden" position, in a nutshell. In case there was any doubt, here it is in black and white: Donaldson wants you to consider that position.
dlbpharmd wrote:Handir replies that the Demondim are using a Fall and are accessing the Illearth Stone at its source, thousands of years ago.
Once again, the Haruchai are the sources of arcane information. How do they know this information?
[The stone] speaks of the Elohim Kastenessen in his Durance, father to the malice of the merewives. His daughters are the Dancers of the Sea, and they swim the fathomless deeps in hunger and cruelty, insatiable for retribution, while their own scion is torment. Yet they know glee as well as hunger, for their father has broken his imprisonment, and at his behest the skurj which he once unwillingly restrained have unleashed their cunning and frenzy against the Land.
Okay, this paragraph is full of revelations. What we suspected before, we can now be sure of: the skurj are indeed the peril that Kastenessen was Appointed to contain; he has indeed broken free of his imprisonment; now he has released the skurj upon the land; there is the hint that the skurj may be doing Kastenessens bidding.
"And it speaks as well of Thomas Covenant ... whose son is abroad in the Land, seeking such havoc that the bones of mountains tremble to contemplate it.
Confirmation that Roger is indeed in the Land and doing bad stuff.
"At the same time, laughing, they desired me to grasp that they have declared themselves utterly to the service of the Chosen. They will bear her wheresoever she wills, until the end of days. Her paths may enter Falls and the hazardous depths of time. Each and all of her choices may conduce to ruin. Yet will they bear her gladly. Indeed, they deem themselves fortunate to serve her.

"It is sooth," he pronounced as if he were passing sentence, "that she may damn the Land. Yet the Ranyhyn believe that she will not. In their eyes, the Land's life and hope require them to believe that she will not."
What is remarkable here is that the position of the Ranyhyn seems strikingly similar to the position of the Lords towards Thomas Covenant. TC might save or damn; the Lord's supported him to their utmost, so that if it ever came to the brink, where it could go either way, they wanted all their weight on the saving side. So they put all of their faith in Covenant, and served him, and derived their hope for the Land from that service.

But I had guessed all along that the Ranyhyn must have tasked Stave somehow. I will cast my lot with the Chosen. I cannot do less than the Ranyhyn. The Ranyhyn showed Stave that Linden deserves his service.
dlbpharmd wrote:Anele's speech is so moving! Seeing the Close again - the description of ruined stone, and the mention of Trell, and then Sunder.....
Yes, contrast Anele's description of the maiming of the close with the Master's. The Master's call it failure and betrayal; Anele teaches them that it is love and anguish. Similarly, the Master's speak of Anele as a danger; Anele speaks of Sunder's son as the object of valor and sacrifice.
dlbpharmd wrote:but what really sticks out is the off-hand mention of Covenant:
For the wielder also this stone grieves, knowing him betrayed.
Betrayed? How?
Yes, indeed. After the earlier revelations, we cannot but believe this. Someone has betrayed Thomas Covenant.

Something tells me it can only be Linden. No one else is in such a position of trust as far as I can tell.

But it could be Roger, based on the proximity of the text to the statement about Roger's "havoc". Is Roger the betrayer of his father?
Relayer wrote:As Linden comes out of sleep she thinks she hears Covenant's voice. And she thinks "if only he would leave her alone, all her woes would be gone."
And then goes on to say, Perhaps he would cease to exist. I have to wonder of that's one of Donaldson's foreshadowing comments, like "over my dead body".

Later the Ranyhyn deliver another one: until the end of days.
Relayer wrote:Also, I haven't re-read this far yet but at the point when the Masters were "taking umbrage" doesn't the light in the Close dim, and a breeze start blowing through? How does that happen?

At first, I thought you were nuts, Relayer. But you are right ... at least partially so.
Around him, tension gathered. It seemed to well up from the twists and flaws of the floor, drift down from the obscured ceiling, until it became so thick that the light of the lamps flickered and dimmed.
I am believing that this was meant to be taken figuratively, not literally, because later it says: As he spoke, the assembled Masters watched him with darkness in their eyes, despite the many lamps

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

We have the revelation about the can/cannot of Linden's power. We have the revelation of Kastenessen and the skurj. There is another.

In earlier chapters, Linden repeatedly raised the issue like a question: Good cannot be accomplished by evil means. Or can it?

Here we discover the answer that she finds.
She had to show them that their fundamental assumptions were false. That good could come of deeds and risks and even purposes which appeared evil.
I'm glad that she chose this answer. That the damned can be saved; that the guilty can find redemption; that the ur-viles can do good. (Can the Demondim be up to something worthy? Can even Lord Foul be reintegrated into decent society?)

I think that this is pretty important.

- - - - - - - - - -

:?: Linden wonders, What had Anele's possessor said to the Demondim? What did that fiery being want? And why were its desires heeded by the Demondim?

Which agrees with what I thought earlier, that Anele's possessor went out into that batttle to give directions to the Demondim. It seems that Kastenessen/Demondim/Esmer are a bloc in this story.

:?: Linden thinks, As soon as she had persuaded the Masters to release Anele, she could gather her companions and head for Mount Thunder, following the hints which Jeremiah had constructed for her.

This picks up from the earlier chapter. At this point, Linden is convinced Jeremiah is in Mt Thunder, and that Jeremiah told her this.

Something is amiss. Something which ties into what happens in the next chapter.

:?: The Masters say of the Demondim's power, We cannot say why their evil does not suffice to undo the Arch.

As a side note, this got me thinking, why do Joan's blasts not rouse the Worm? Do the same "restrictions inherent to the nature of power" apply here as well? If you believe that the Arch and the Worm are one and the same, as I do, this makes sense. The necessity of freedom makes Joan unable to rouse the Worm.

:?: Linden thinks, Liand was right about the Masters. They feared to grieve.

What was this in reference to?

:?: The title of this part of the book is "the only form of innocecse". I speculated that this refers to ignorance.

Which makes Linden's lines below noteworthy.
"I've got one more answer for you."

Ignorance.
And then she desperately calls Anele forward.

If Anele's monologue in the close sways the Masters, if he does anything to prove his worthiness, then it is that he shows the Masters how they are ignorant. Ignorant of what is really going on in the Land. What is really at stake. What is the real danger of despair. What is the real danger of supressing the people of the Land, their service.
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Post by Relayer »

Wayfriend wrote:
Relayer wrote:Also, I haven't re-read this far yet but at the point when the Masters were "taking umbrage" doesn't the light in the Close dim, and a breeze start blowing through? How does that happen?

At first, I thought you were nuts, Relayer. But you are right ... at least partially so.
Around him, tension gathered. It seemed to well up from the twists and flaws of the floor, drift down from the obscured ceiling, until it became so thick that the light of the lamps flickered and dimmed.
I am believing that this was meant to be taken figuratively, not literally, because later it says: As he spoke, the assembled Masters watched him with darkness in their eyes, despite the many lamps
No, you were correct. I am nuts :-)

I'd never paid attention to that part before either, assuming it was just figurative. But something about it this time is making me wonder. I'm beginning to suspect that at least Handir may be more than he appears to be.
Wayfriend wrote::?: Linden thinks, Liand was right about the Masters. They feared to grieve.

What was this in reference to?
I'm not sure what chapter it's in (hard to tell from the e-book ... I think it's in Hints, Ch. 11) but up in the mts near the arete, after another round of bickering between Hami and Stave...
Liand: "What troubles the Master? Can he not descry the worth of the Ramen?"

"Sure, he can," Linden replied softly. "It isn't their honesty he's worried about. It's their secrets."

The Stonedownor looked surprised; but he did not contradict her. Perhaps he, too, had felt the undercurrents in Hami and her Cords. Instead he mused as if to himself, "l had not known that the Masters are capable of grief."

Linden sighed, "Of course they are." If they had not felt love or known loss, they would not have sworn the Vow which had bound them to the service of the Lords. "They're just too strict to admit it most of the time."

Liand frowned. "Does that account for their denial of the Land's history and wonder? Do they fear to grieve?"
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Post by dlbpharmd »

Okay, this paragraph is full of revelations. What we suspected before, we can now be sure of: the skurj are indeed the peril that Kastenessen was Appointed to contain; he has indeed broken free of his imprisonment; now he has released the skurj upon the land; there is the hint that the skurj may be doing Kastenessens bidding.
Agreed, but why did K send the skurj to the Land? Shouldn't he be pissed at the Elohim and send them there instead?
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Post by wayfriend »

It seems to be, from what Foul hints at (in The Despiser's Guidance), that the skurj are threatening the Arch of Time. (It's rather disappointing that there's so much going on that we only get hints about. Or at least frustrating.) If Kastennessen is trying to get back at the Elohim, that's about the best way to do it. If the Arch is destroyed, the Elohim would not survive. Bwa ha ha. He's probably mad enough to do it.
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

But how can anything born/created within the Arch break it?
I didn't think it was possible, hence the reason for White Gold.
Sure, maybe something within the Arch can rouse the Worm which would destroy everything but the Arch itself would be untouched by the Worms rousing.

(I have a feeling that there's a thread already on this)
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Post by Aleksandr »

Re: Agreed, but why did K send the skurj to the Land?


Maybe we're going to find out that there's some connection in the very distant past between Kastenessen, the Skurj and the Land. Granted, we're told that the distant North was where the threat was and where he was appointed, but maybe he dwelt in the Land before, maybe that was where his woman lived?
Also, I have to wonder if there's a connection between the Skurj and the Fire Lions. The latter are powerful but not malignant, maybe Skurj are corrupted Fire Lions?
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Post by wayfriend »

I have no reason to believe that the skurj are substantially different than sandgorgons or croyel or griffins. They are nasty, and maybe they are the result of the banes Foul planted before he was imprisoned in the Earth. But they probably aren't anything that's a threat to the Arch of Time until someone nefarious figures out how to use them in some specific way. Like Kastennessen.

I predict that it is either the breaking of the Law of Death, or of Life, or the creation of the ceasures -- something new -- that allowed Kastenessen to break his Durance. (If a ceasures could destroy Kevin's Watch, it could probably also destroy a "keystone" that "caps" a fire.)

Outside odds for the merewives or Esmer busting him loose. While highly plausible, I thing Donaldson would prefer to put some guilt on Covenant and/or Linden.

Kastenessen's madness, and vengeance, is enough IMO to explain his desire to use the skurj to slowly destroy the Earth. All Foul has to do, as Covenant says, is laugh. And maybe whisper in Kastenessen's ear.
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Post by dlbpharmd »

(If a ceasures could destroy Kevin's Watch, it could probably also destroy a "keystone" that "caps" a fire.)
Right, I think this is most plausible, with Esmer being a secondary option.
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Post by iQuestor »

An od thought ocurred to me -- I just finished TOT and read a passage where Findail tells the story of Kastenessen's apointment, and how they had to go get him and bind him to his fate, capping the great fire Int he North...

In speaking of Kastenessen's love, Findail said:

"At the time of election, he was not present in Elemesnedene. Rather, he inhabited a land to the east, where the elohim are neither known nor guessed. And there he did that which no Elohim has ever done. He gave himself in love to a mortal woman. He walked among her folk as a man of their own kind."

They appointed him in his absence:

".. when the knowledge of his election came to him he took the woman his lover by the hand and fled, seeking to foil the burden. So it fell to me and to others with me, to give pursuit."

finally, when they caught him, Findail relates:

"... To me especially he gave curses, promising a doom which would surpass all his dismay - for I had been nearer to him among the Elohim than any other, and I would not hear him."


much later, when the haruchai Brinn and Cail dive over to answer the call of the Merewives, Covenant asks Findail for help. He relates:

"It is soothe there are many tales told of these merewives, the Dancers of the Sea. One such is the tale that they are the descendants and inheritors of the woman Kastenessen loved - that she took with her the power and knowledge which she gained from him, and also the daughters of all men-betrayed women, and set for herself and them to seek restitution from all men who abandon their women in the name of the sea. "

thoughts:

1. the woman Kastenssen loved was in a land to the east. They had no acquaitance with the elohim ("..neither known nor guessed..") . Since elohim had indeed visited the land (The Collossus of the falls was one of the appointed) I think it might be doubtful that she is from the land.

However, I consulted the Atlas of the Land and also the text, but just cant tell if the land is east of Elemensedene or not. However, Coercri, from where Starfare's Gem departed, is on the West coast, so its at least plausible they sailed due west to reach bareIsle and Elemensdene. If this is true, then the Land is indeed East of the elohim, which might indicate she was from the Land.

Any comments? Wayfriend?

2. Kastenessen hated Findail for being forced to meet his appointment in the far north, and promised doom. Findail ended up being part of the Staff of Law. If Kastenessen escaped his doom, he might then go after what Findail is now become, namely the staff.

This might be far fetched, but would love to hear comments.
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Post by danlo »

Coercri, from where Starfare's Gem departed, is on the West coast
It is???? 8O 8O
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Post by emotional leper »

Question: The Appointed Elohim. Do they continue to 'live on' after their tasks. Apparently Kastenessen continued to live on, and was eventually able to free himself. So does Findail have a continued existance as long as the new Staff of Law exist? If he does, then to meet out his revenge, might not Kastenessen want to destroy the new Staff of Law? And with the Staff gone again, wouldn't that speed of the damage that the Falls cause, shortening the amount of time needed to undo the Arch?

Since the Haruchai are serving Foul by preventing anyone else from learning any sort of Lore which might enable them to stand against Foul should the Haruchai fail, which they must, since if they can't even stand against the Demondim, they surely cannot stand against Corruption in a fight, wouldn't Kevin's Dirt also be the fault of the Haruchai? Even if they didn't cause it, and it was caused by Foul, or by Kastenessen, or by some other Elohim or other power, with no one around who could wield the Earthpower or the Lore of the Old or New Lords, there was no way to combat it.

Also, does anyone remember exactly how long ago Kevin's dirt appeared? I seem to recall that the Falls appeared in the Land after Linden gave Joan her ring back. Could Kevin's Dirt also somehow be Joan's doing? Maybe an effect of her catatonia upon the land?
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Post by danlo »

EL wrote:Also, does anyone remember exactly how long ago Kevin's dirt appeared?
Great question! We need to research this and find the cause-this may be a very key point to the Final Chrons. :?
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