What about the Illearth War?

[burgs]

Christ, who cares what I have to say after that post?

Savvy?

[Avatar]

No need to be grateful. I try to remember everybody, especially good posters.

If you want a different avatar, just pm me about it, I'll help you out if you want.

--A

[dlbpharmd]

It is good to see you around Burgs, even though I stopped reading that really long post the instant I realized it had nothng to do with TIW.

Your posts on the Chronicles are always insightful and a must-read for me.

[iQuestor]

TIW is my favorite book of both series. Its heartbreaking. I love it precisely because of this -- probably the same reason Wayfriend didnt like it...

[Peven]

i am doing a reread of all the TC books so it will be fresh in my mind when Fatal Revenant is released, it has been about a decade since i have done so. a few things in TIW have jumped out at me that i had forgotten while reading through discussions here previously.

one, the question as to whether or not The Land is real or not seems to be definitively answered, it IS. there is an entire section written from Hile Troy's perspective, and in it an irrefutable case is made due to his experience, from his point of view, that The Land is real. now, if The Land was not real, and nothing but a delusion of Covenant's mind, then Troy would have to be so as well, so then how would
it be correct for Donaldson to write an entire section from a delusion's point of view?

two, Hile Troy is a bigger tool than Linden Avery. what an arrogant putz, using up lives based on his tactics when he has no idea what he is asking, no idea of what it is like to fight and suffer and die. i wonder if Donaldson was making a statement, or at least basing Troy, on the stuffed shirts in the Pentagon who play their war games without knowing what it is like to be on the battlefield or risk their own lives. becoming a Forestal isn't some great redeeming sacrifice either, not a sacrifice at all if you ask me.

[Mortice Root]

Peven-
I agree with you completely about the reality/unreality of the Land question. I think it's a valid discussion based on the information in LFB, but you're right, by the time we get to to TIW and the Troy chapters, it seems sort of moot. Not only that, but I thought that in TIW there was a chapter from Mhoram's POV also, which would make even less sense if the Land wasn't real. Of course, TC doesn't know this stuff is happening so the Land may still be unreal to him, but as readers, it seems pretty clear-cut by that point.

Your second point about Troy is interesting. I've never thought of him in that way (as a representative of arm-chair type generals) but you could be right. I've always seen him as an example of what TC could have been. SRD makes the two pretty similar, both with life-altering handicaps that are healed, both given the opportunity for great power. Troy takes the stereotypical fantasy-literature course of accepting the power that is offered to him, the very thing that TC rejected. Troy's outcome shows the danger in that choice.

[burgs]

I think what matters, essentially, is OUR belief in the Land. Do we think it's real? Do we think it exists in Covenant's mind? Valid arguments could be made for almost any point-of-view, some stronger than others, of course. Personally, I think it's real. But that's because I *want* to believe it's real. I can't possibly imagine anything else. So that's my personal bias.

Regarding Troy. The blind war-mongerer is a metaphor far more appropriate for today's socio-political climate. If TIW were written in this decade, I would think that SRD might be making a point. But it wasn't, so I don't think he is.

More importantly, though, is that at every possible opportunity SRD tells us (in the GI, mainly) that he is not a polemicist. His stories aren't written to make a point or to attack other's beliefs; rather, they're written purely for telling a story. I have to say that I believe him, although (as he allows) subconscious elements can enter the story.

[wayfriend]

Have you guys contributed to the "Hile Troy was a berk" thread?

Remember, the Lords knew all about Hile Troy, and they rested their faith in him. And he did beat the other choices for Warmark during some sort of testing. So Hile Troy was not innately incompetent, IMO.

[KAY1]

Peven, you forget though that in TPTP TC tries to find hile Troy by calling the military who deny his existence. Of course they would as his work was top secret so therefore the illusion is preserved. The denial of his existence is perfectly logical and therefore we still don't know one way or another. Also in TPTP there is plenty of dialogue in Revelstone before TC is even 'in' The Land.

I am sure there was quite a lot in the GI about this but it was a long time ago that I contributed to or looked at that so I am not too sure.

I think SRD said something about none of this still being proof of anything.

[Mortice Root]

I didn't mean to suggest that Troy was incompetent. Quite the reverse actually. He does accomplish his goal of destorying Flesharrower's army, which (from what I remember) was a greater military victory than anyone in the Land had achieved against Foul for a long time (maybe ever).

And I agree too, that SRD doesn't write to teach lessons. IMO, he writes to tell stories, and if we as readers draw any lessons from them, that's a combination of what he writes and what we personally bring to the reading of his work.

[iQuestor]

I didn't mean to suggest that Troy was incompetent. Quite the reverse actually. He does accomplish his goal of destorying Flesharrower's army, which (from what I remember) was a greater military victory than anyone in the Land had achieved against Foul for a long time (maybe ever).

yes. A few more victories like that and they'd lose everything. yikes.

[Mortice Root]

Well, yeah. That was my point earlier. He was competent in that he accomplished the destruction of Flesharrow's army, but in doing so, totally decimated the Land's defenses for future attacks. It's a good case of winning the battle but (setting yourself up for) losing the war. And it highlights the dangers of what may have happened to TC, had he accepted the belief the Land's residents had in him from the beginning. Becuase Troy was given power (which he deserved) he was set up to fail mightly. To paraphrase TC's words to Troy, only those who are trusted can have serious consequences when they screw up. I think Troy's mistake was not being able to comprehend how much his "victory" would cost.

[iQuestor]

Well, yeah. That was my point earlier. He was competent in that he accomplished the destruction of Flesharrow's army, but in doing so, totally decimated the Land's defenses for future attacks. It's a good case of winning the battle but (setting yourself up for) losing the war. And it highlights the dangers of what may have happened to TC, had he accepted the belief the Land's residents had in him from the beginning. Becuase Troy was given power (which he deserved) he was set up to fail mightly. To paraphrase TC's words to Troy, only those who are trusted can have serious consequences when they screw up. I think Troy's mistake was not being able to comprehend how much his "victory" would cost.

yeah. Troy was the prototypical "if you want something hard enough it will work out" military leader; But Foul didnt really care about winning a Land battle, he cared about causing the Lords to despair , causing TC to despair. Troy asked Mhoram the unthinkable, to give his life, and the lives of the whole army in return for the destruction of Fleshharrower.

Troy also almost lept from Kevins Watch when he saw the Army. he was such a tragic figure.

There are many threads discussing his military strategy -- he based his whole plan on being able to know ahead of time when Fouls army marched. that was his first really big mistake.

[Peven]

he was so arrogant, though. he looked down on the people of the Land, even the Old Lords. here he is some pansy ass who had never been in a real fight and he is referring to the Old Lords and their battles, their strategy against Lord Foul in a total condescending manner. those foolish Lords, if only they knew The Despiser, Ur-viles, cavewights, The Land as well as Hile Troy. bah. then he asks a 28 day death march out of Warward, expecting them to go right into battle after they arrive, when he himself couldn't hack more than 4 days marching himself. putz.

[amanibhavam]

Pansy ass? The man had no eyes at all and had no vision for most of his life. I think he could be forgiven for not having been in a real fight?

Although it is not mentioned anywhere in the books as far as I can remember, I am fairly sure TH was somehow chosen by the Creator. Because of who he was. Because he was the type of man "who backs into corners". Who makes extravagant promises and then pays with his soul for them. In that respect he even surpassed the Bloodguard who did not go all the way in the end but withdrew when they saw their failure.
I did not particularly "like" TH (mainly because he opposed TC, and I, being the fool I am, was more attracted to the arrogant dickhead of TC rather than TH), but I respect him.

[Peven]

ok, so maybe calling him a "pansy ass" is a bit harsh, but with TIW fresh in my mind i can't get past the fact that he asked more of everyone around him than he asked of himself, when he was faced with harsh reality, like when Manethrall Gay arrived with news of Foul's army, or on Kevin's Watch seeing Foul's army for the first time, he folded like a cheap chair. only at the end, after he had used up thousands of lives because of his own incompetence, did he step up and take personal responsibility, and even then the "price" he paid was being transformed into a being of greater power than he ever knew with a vastly extended life.

and i still haven't broached how childishly, how inconsiderately, he dealt with the issue of Trell/Elena, causing Trell even more pain than he was already dealing with.

it just strikes me that he seems to get a free pass while Linden, who i also have problems with, is a common punching bag, and she healed The Land.

[emotional leper]

Also, does anyone remember the exact figure of how far they were marchign every day? 'cause I've done 32/km a day, marching 16 hours a day, and it wasn't that bad. Atleast, I don't remember it. 32km would be just barely over 5 and three quarters leagues.

[Peven]

Also, does anyone remember the exact figure of how far they were marchign every day? 'cause I've done 32/km a day, marching 16 hours a day, and it wasn't that bad. Atleast, I don't remember it. 32km would be just barely over 5 and three quarters leagues.

10 leagues a day, for 28 days, carrying weapons and packs.

[emotional leper]

Also, does anyone remember the exact figure of how far they were marchign every day? 'cause I've done 32/km a day, marching 16 hours a day, and it wasn't that bad. Atleast, I don't remember it. 32km would be just barely over 5 and three quarters leagues.

10 leagues a day, for 28 days, carrying weapons and packs.

2.15771146 miles per hour for 16 hours, and, say, 70 pounds of kit?

Yeah. The Romans used to do that, and more, and eat nothing but Grass.

I guess Hile Troy wasn't no Ivlivs Caesar...

[iQuestor]

Hile Troy was a tragic figure; I do think he did ask a lot of the entire warward and Mhoram especially, and, yes he did fold like a cheap chair on Kevin's Watch when he saw the true size of Fouls Army.

I do not think he was a coward or a putz. I think his strategy was bad and that his particular set of skills and flaws made him exactly what was required, and he did ultimately fail. He was an expert at logistics and mobility, but no hands on, a common problem in many industries.

I beleive his heart was in the right place, and he desparately wanted to save the land. I completely disagree he looked down on anyone in the Land, he truly loved it. He was in Love with Elena and Hated TC, because he was his opposite. Because TC didnt even beleive in the Land, when it was all Hile Troy had.