Hey, Murrin!

[Fist and Faith]

Here's the first of a few questions I have.

What's with the outrageous war between the Soletaken and T'lan Imass? Olar Ethil was the first Soletaken. Did they decide nobody but the T'lan Imass should become Soletaken? Or about the Soletaken calling themselves the First Empire? Was that enought to try to wipe them all out? What we hear about it, the incredible losses on both side... Especially when Heboric tells the story... Just an amazing part of the history that I don't really understand.

[Holsety]

I'm going to admit confusion. From what I understood the T'lan Imass didn't have a war with the Soletaken/D'ivers. They were stepping in to the First Empire (that is, the first human empire, not their own first empire) to stop the rituals which were transforming people into Soletaken. I'm not really even sure how the imass could have a war w/ the soletaken in general, because soletaken are individuals who are almost always in conflict w/ each other, not a faction in the sense that the imass and other races are. I remember something about "ties" between the soletaken and the imass (since soletaken preceded imass it could be that the soletaken have some sort of role in the origins of the imass) but not anything about the war.

The "stepping in" during the 1st empire could be for two reasons. First, like you said, they don't want other soletaken, because they do not want anyone to be too powerful. Their wars against the jaghut were apparently waged (also note that the t'lan imass and the jaghut are natural opposites: imass consider a single clanless warrior to be the greatest of all wrongs, while for the jaghut community is feared as the direct cause of slavery and tyranny) to stop the tyrant, and also because the Jaghut glacial rituals were in general far too powerful in their view. In fact I believe it's suggested that the glaciation destroyed both the K'chain and the FA civilizations. I don't believe this, the biggest factor in the K'Chain's downfall seems to be shortail VS longtail and their war against the Tiste, and Silchas Ruin has indicated that internal problems led to the FA's downfall. ANYWAY I think the Imass fear the Soletaken because the Path of Hands will (supposedly) allow the victor to achieve dominance over all other soletaken, much like the tyrants could achieve dominance over humans. Imass don't like anyone having too much power (in fact I think something in book 6 indicates they are worried about shadowthrone).

Second, they may have been seeking to keep the first empire intact. Whether they feel any sort of love or loyalty for humans as their living, breathing descendants, I'm not sure, but I think it's a possibility that they tried to stop the crumbling of the first empire for that reason.

[I'm Murrin]

Yes, it's hard to say exactly why they did what they did. We know that there was a ritual that went incredibly wrong, and it started transforming a lot people in the First Empire into Soletaken and D'ivers at the same time--The majority of Soletaken and all the D'ivers in the world are survivors from that event--and we know that the T'lan Imass showed up and killed as many of them as they could right after it started happening. There are suggestions that the ritual was an attempt by Dessimbelackis to cheat and gain Ascendancy, but we don't know why it backfired, or why the T'lan had to kill everyone.

[Fist and Faith]

Couldn't type this last night...

"Soletaken and D'ivers," the ex-priest said. "The ritual unleashed powers that ran wild. Like a plague, shapeshifting claimed thousands, unwelcomed, no initiation - many went mad. Death filled the city, every street, every house. Families were torn apart by their own." He shook himself. "All within but a handful of hours," he whispered.

Kulp's eyes fixed on another figure, almost lost in the midst of a pile of mineralized corpses. "Not just Soletaken and D'ivers..."

Heboric sighed. "No."

Felisin approached the subject of the mage's rapt attention. She saw thick, nut-brown limbs - an arm and a leg, still attacked to an otherwise dismembered torso. Withered skin wrapped the thick bones. I've seen this before. On the Silanda. T'lan Imass.

"Your immortal custodians," Kulp said.

"Aye."

"They took losses here."

"Oh that they did," Heboric said. "Appalling losses. There is a bond between the T'lan Imass and the Soletaken and D'ivers, a mysterious kinship that was unsuspected by the dwellers of this city - though they claimed for themselves the proud title of First Empire. That would have irritated the T'lan Imass - assuming such creatures can feel irritation - to have boldly assumed a title that rightly belonged to them. Yet what drew them here was the ritual, and the need to set things right."

That's what I'd like to know about - the bond that existed before the ritual was performed - the bond that the dwellers didn't know about.

[I'm Murrin]

I would guess that's just the reference to the fact that the Bonecasters are all Soletaken, that they were the original ones. Maybe that's why they felt the need to "correct" the mistake of the ritual.

[Fist and Faith]

Yeah, that's my guess, too. I just thought maybe it was discussed after HoC.

[Holsety]

I would guess that's just the reference to the fact that the Bonecasters are all Soletaken, that they were the original ones. Maybe that's why they felt the need to "correct" the mistake of the ritual.

I am pretty sure there's a quote in DG about how soletaken are older than the 4 founding races - "elder in elder times" or something like that. Well, maybe I'm confused, whatevs.

Well certainly the 4 founding races aren't the first races, we know the eres precede the tiste.

RG and BH spoilers.

Spoiler

I am pretty sure dessimbelackis is a deragoth soletaken/d'ivers. I dunno if the normal deragoth - which the ancestors of the humans and imass scavenged off of - were in any way magical, soletaken, ascendants, or just really mean and dangerous wolf thingies. If they were, this could be the link.

Another stretch is that it refers to the dragons - possibly/maybe elient soletaken - who "fuel" each warren, including tellann.

But I think the whole bonecasters being soletaken makes the most sense.

[Fist and Faith]

OK, Murrin, Question #2:

How the heck did Kilava manage to stay alive for 300,00+ years without having gone through the Ritual with the rest of the Imas??? Was it just because she's a Bonecaster? I know we learn in HoC that she was drawn by, iirc, Pran, which was against the rules, and lead to his wife's extreme "issues," leading to her becoming Sha'ik... But do I remember correctly that having been drawn made Kilava immortal?

[I'm Murrin]

I believe so--the power of images. And it was Onrack.

[Fist and Faith]

Ah, yes. Onrack. Anyway, I'm thinking they should have just all drawn each other. They could have all lived that long without the drawbacks of the Ritual.

[I'm Murrin]

I think it's supposed to require passion behind it--it took Onrack's passion for Kilava, and his desire to capture her beauty. So it wouldn't be as simple as just everyone drawing each other, I think.

[Fist and Faith]

Yeah, you're probably right. And if they all died when mortally wounded, as I suspect Kilava would?, there wouldn't be the walking skeletons that we all know and love so much!