I don't think Foul knew about Linden prior to her summoning in 2nd Chronicles, and I don't think she was intentionally summoned. I also don't think Foul intended to summon her later, as someone suggested above.
I do, however, believe that Foul intended to bring her back to the Land in ROTE. If one assumes that Roger was somehow controlled by Foul, then it's obvious that Linden was the one Foul was after (along with Joan and Roger, and most likely Jeremiah.) Foul had to have Linden because he needs Covenant's ring.
Runes, Part One, Ch. 1: "I am content"
Moderators: Cord Hurn, danlo, dlbpharmd
I think you're right about bringing Linden back in ROTE, but couldn't he also use Joan's white gold, or does her insanity make her more difficult to manipulate?dlbpharmd wrote:I don't think Foul knew about Linden prior to her summoning in 2nd Chronicles, and I don't think she was intentionally summoned. I also don't think Foul intended to summon her later, as someone suggested above.
I do, however, believe that Foul intended to bring her back to the Land in ROTE. If one assumes that Roger was somehow controlled by Foul, then it's obvious that Linden was the one Foul was after (along with Joan and Roger, and most likely Jeremiah.) Foul had to have Linden because he needs Covenant's ring.
Proverbs for Paranoids #3.
If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers.
If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers.
If Foul's intention was to get [Linden] back into the Land--which does make the most sense--without summoning her himself, so that she would destroy the AOT, why bother with Roger and Joan? Was Foul responsible for all of the summonings, or were there a series of individual summonings that played out over several minutes on Haven Farm?
Was it Foul's goal was to manipulate Roger to bring Jeremiah into the Land thus luring Linden to rescue him? Or was Foul's intention, not realizing the extent of Joan's madness, to manipulate Roger so that he could somehow access Joan's white gold? Perhaps Foul discovered Joan couldn't be totally controlled, thus forcing him to get Linden into the Land--his only white gold alternative. I guess that's why I wonder if Joan actually summoned Linden. Either she reached out for help, or she was manipulated by Foul or Roger to do so.
[mod edit for clarity]
Was it Foul's goal was to manipulate Roger to bring Jeremiah into the Land thus luring Linden to rescue him? Or was Foul's intention, not realizing the extent of Joan's madness, to manipulate Roger so that he could somehow access Joan's white gold? Perhaps Foul discovered Joan couldn't be totally controlled, thus forcing him to get Linden into the Land--his only white gold alternative. I guess that's why I wonder if Joan actually summoned Linden. Either she reached out for help, or she was manipulated by Foul or Roger to do so.
[mod edit for clarity]
Proverbs for Paranoids #3.
If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers.
If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers.
Well, we know from 2nd Chronicles that without the Staff of Law or white gold, a summoning requires great power along with specific criteria - location, pain, blood, etc. Foul may be have been able to produce enough power to summon Joan but no one else. Then, Joan with white gold could summon anyone regardless of their situation. Also, Foul may have needed Joan in the Land the exacerbate the time/ceasures phenomenon. As to Roger, we don't have enough information yet how he comes into play in the story.
I think it's pretty obvious that Foul doesn't have control over who exactly gets summoned. The Creator made that clear at the end of the First Chronicles: "<i>I</i> elected you for the Land." All he can do inside the Arch is open up the way. Sure, some people can respond to him (like Covenant choosing to trade himself for Joan), but Linden showed up outside his will; I don't think he was expecting her.
I'm still not sure exactly what's going on here... no doubt we'll find out more as the story progresses.
I'm still not sure exactly what's going on here... no doubt we'll find out more as the story progresses.
Choiceless, you were given the power of choice. I elected you for the Land but did not compel you to serve my purpose in the Land... Only thus could I preserve the integrity of my creation.
From the GI today:
Perry asked:
At first (earlier in the GI for Jan.) I made the assumption LF was the one that had the summons done, but after my rereads, I am thinking one of the 2 surviving ravers was responsible. Am I correct in this assumption?
SRD replied:
Hmm. A troubling question. I thought it was clear that Joan summoned Linden et al. LF snatched Joan: she did the rest (guided, doubtless, or even coerced by turiya).
"History is a myth men have agreed upon." - Napoleon
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wayfriend
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I think this is only 90% correct. This came in today.Murrin wrote:I thought it ws suggested in the book that Joan did: Foul summoned Joan, then Joan summoned everyone else.
Not "LF summoned Joan". Hint Hint.In the Gradual Interview wrote:Perry Bell: Hello Stephen,
I was wondering if you could clarify something for me. I have read, reread, and reread yet again ROTE, and cannot find who was responsible for Linden's summons to the land. Am I missing something? At first (earlier in the GI for Jan.) I made the assumption LF was the one that had the summons done, but after my rereads, I am thinking one of the 2 surviving ravers was responsible. Am I correct in this assumption?
Thanks again for a great series!
Perry Bell
- Hmm. A troubling question. I thought it was clear that Joan summoned Linden et al. LF snatched Joan: she did the rest (guided, doubtless, or even coerced by turiya).
(02/14/2007)
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wayfriend
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OK. SRD didn't say LF summoned Joan, he says LF snatched Joan.
Normally, I would not find that significant, except (a) just a week earlier he talked about making that mistake again, and (b) in this thread I had wondered how Joan actually got to the Land since she didn't seem to be summoned, she seemed partly there all along, and (c) it's just the kind of ambiguity SRD would do in the GI, in my humble opinion.
Summonsing, as we know, is a law-laden process. Rules and such. It may be that Foul has found an alternate mechanism. Something that (as we discussed in the last chapters) seems to be breaking down barriers between worlds. Something brute-force rather than harmonious.
It would fit all the clues.
Or I could be reading too much into one word.
Normally, I would not find that significant, except (a) just a week earlier he talked about making that mistake again, and (b) in this thread I had wondered how Joan actually got to the Land since she didn't seem to be summoned, she seemed partly there all along, and (c) it's just the kind of ambiguity SRD would do in the GI, in my humble opinion.
Summonsing, as we know, is a law-laden process. Rules and such. It may be that Foul has found an alternate mechanism. Something that (as we discussed in the last chapters) seems to be breaking down barriers between worlds. Something brute-force rather than harmonious.
It would fit all the clues.
Or I could be reading too much into one word.
.
I haven't had a chance to look through many of the threads to find if this discussion is happening elsewhere, but...Wayfriend wrote:OK. SRD didn't say LF summoned Joan, he says LF snatched Joan.
Normally, I would not find that significant, except (a) just a week earlier he talked about making that mistake again, and (b) in this thread I had wondered how Joan actually got to the Land since she didn't seem to be summoned, she seemed partly there all along, and (c) it's just the kind of ambiguity SRD would do in the GI, in my humble opinion.
Summonsing, as we know, is a law-laden process. Rules and such. It may be that Foul has found an alternate mechanism. Something that (as we discussed in the last chapters) seems to be breaking down barriers between worlds. Something brute-force rather than harmonious.
It would fit all the clues.
Or I could be reading too much into one word.
My view is that the evidence of the prologue is all about the convergence in some way between the two worlds. It seems to me that Roger's role is more than just getting the various characters to the same spot at the right time, I think he is somehow manipulating the opening to let (or push) Joan through. She can then pull the others from there. Much of the imagery suggests this (to me anyway).
This isn't incompatible with the answer given by SRD if you view the possibility that Roger is an anologue for LF (born of despite?) now.
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Fuzzy_Logic
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I had always assumed the "mistake" was in Foul summoning *Covenant* -- ensuring that Covenant would remain in the land until he defeated Foul. If Foul had made someone else summon Covenant, he'd have a way to get rid of him.
But that doesn't make sense. Covenant died on earth, so he would have persisted in the land anyway, as Linden will. Still, we may be on to something.
Maybe, by Summoning Covenant, Foul reinforced the connection between them, setting the seeds for Covenant's triumph over him.
But that still doesn't work -- Linden isn't connected to him the way Covenant is, so that doesn't even seem to be an issue.
But that doesn't make sense. Covenant died on earth, so he would have persisted in the land anyway, as Linden will. Still, we may be on to something.
Maybe, by Summoning Covenant, Foul reinforced the connection between them, setting the seeds for Covenant's triumph over him.
But that still doesn't work -- Linden isn't connected to him the way Covenant is, so that doesn't even seem to be an issue.