Another Waco?

[Wyldewode]

The other problem is that this is not a problem with sexuality -- it's a problem with monotheism.

I have to disagree on this. I think this is more a matter of power, and the abuse of it. The matter of religion merely muddies the waters. And no one is arguing that it is about sex. . . not that I read anyway.

Thank you for clarifying, by the way.

Oh, it's quite a problem with Monotheism. Under Monotheism, there is only one true God, and his commandments are the only true commandments, and disobeying those commandments carries bad penatlies. And the representatives of the One True God must be obeyed, period. So when your Godly Representative says it's God's Will you Marry Person X, you don't have a choice.

Again, the issue of religion is merely a subset of this problem. What we are really looking at is a hierarchical power structure. The leader of this group holds absolute power over the followers (for the moment, let's ignore the fact that any religion is involved). He hands out this power to his male followers in that he gives them free reign to rape and beat the women (again, let's ignore the "spiritual marriage" part). The real problem is the abuse of power that is going on here, and the religion factor is secondary to it. The religion factors in only in as much as it is why these people allow Warren Jeffs (and by extension his male followers) to exercise such absolute power over them.

[emotional leper]

I have to disagree on this. I think this is more a matter of power, and the abuse of it. The matter of religion merely muddies the waters. And no one is arguing that it is about sex. . . not that I read anyway.

Thank you for clarifying, by the way.

Oh, it's quite a problem with Monotheism. Under Monotheism, there is only one true God, and his commandments are the only true commandments, and disobeying those commandments carries bad penatlies. And the representatives of the One True God must be obeyed, period. So when your Godly Representative says it's God's Will you Marry Person X, you don't have a choice.

Again, the issue of religion is merely a subset of this problem. What we are really looking at is a hierarchical power structure. The leader of this group holds absolute power over the followers (for the moment, let's ignore the fact that any religion is involved). He hands out this power to his male followers in that he gives them free reign to rape and beat the women (again, let's ignore the "spiritual marriage" part). The real problem is the abuse of power that is going on here, and the religion factor is secondary to it. The religion factors in only in as much as it is why these people allow Warren Jeffs (and by extension his male followers) to exercise such absolute power over them.

Religion, in specific, monotheism, is what is allowing the abuse of power to begin with.

Ebola is to Monotheism as Haemmorage is to Abuse of Power in this case.

[Wyldewode]

With Ebola, you ultimately die of hemorrhage, since you no longer possess enough blood to oxygenate your brain, etc. And in this case, the religion is the carrier of the action, just as hemorrhage is the real killer. But on that person's death certificate, it would say something like death from complications of Ebola. So. . . it ultimately comes down to the Abuse of Power as the main problem here.

[emotional leper]

With Ebola, you ultimately die of hemorrhage, since you no longer possess enough blood to oxygenate your brain, etc. And in this case, the religion is the carrier of the action, just as hemorrhage is the real killer. But on that person's death certificate, it would say something like death from complications of Ebola. So. . . it ultimately comes down to the Abuse of Power as the main problem here.

And this abuse of power would not have been possible except for the Religion.

If some mantis walks up to me and says, "Neptune wants you to build a Hero Shrine to Hercules," I can totally go, "And Jupiter says FRACK OFF!"

[jwaneeta]

If some mantis walks up to me and says, "Neptune wants you to build a Hero Shrine to Hercules," I can totally go, "And Jupiter says FRACK OFF!"

What does this have to do with rape?

[jwaneeta]

Oh, it's quite a problem with Monotheism. Under Monotheism, there is only one true God, and his commandments are the only true commandments, and disobeying those commandments carries bad penatlies. And the representatives of the One True God must be obeyed, period. So when your Godly Representative says it's God's Will you Marry Person X, you don't have a choice.

Some images of rape in the culture of polytheistic Greece:

i71.photobucket.com/albums/i159/jwaneeta/sabinew_rape.jpg

i71.photobucket.com/albums/i159/jwaneeta/dav_rape.jpg

i71.photobucket.com/albums/i159/jwaneeta/rape_sabines.jpg

Is it titilating at a remove? What age is okay for rape?

EF, what age do you think is the age of consent?

(citation: arthistory.heindorffhus.dk/frame-Style12-NeoClassical.htm)

[Cail]

It's patently obvious that rape isn't specific to any religious group or belief set.

However there's no doubt that religious beliefs can be used as a bullying tactic in cases like this latest one.

[Wyldewode]

However there's no doubt that religious beliefs can be used as a bullying tactic in cases like this latest one.

Agreed.

[Avatar]

(Whoops, those images were pushing out the page edge. Edited them to links, no worries.)

--A

[jwaneeta]

(Whoops, those images were pushing out the page edge. Edited them to links, no worries.)

--A

Sorry about that. MY BRAIN R NOT GUD

[Avatar]

Like I said, no worries.

--A

[Wyldewode]

I think that without our antagonist (and I mean that in the sense that he differed in opinion against the majority) this particular subject may be exhausted.

[jwaneeta]

I think that without our antagonist (and I mean that in the sense that he differed in opinion against the majority) this particular subject may be exhausted.

So it would seem.

[Rawedge Rim]

EL, I don't get this antagonism to religion. Certainly religion has played a role in various, what we consider, atrocities. However, just as many, if not more, were perpetrated for non-religeous reasons. Just in recent memory, Pol Pot in Cambodia, Stalin in the USSR ( in fact, Stalin makes every religeous pogrom look like pikers), Chairman Mao in China, Hitler in Europe, the Hutu's and Tutsie's in Rwanda, and the White settlers in the Americas and Australia against the aborigional people who were already there.

[Plissken]

Unquestioning faith in a god has a price.

The price for unquestioning faith in a leader is higher.

[Avatar]

I think unquestioning faith in anything is bad. And the prices could well be similar.

--A

[SoulQuest1970]

I think unquestioning faith in anything is bad. And the prices could well be similar.

--A

Unquestioning faith in a high being is not bad. It is when you have unquestioning faith in a "Spiritual Leader" that you run into problems. People are fallable and you should always question your spiritual leaders. My ex-mother-in-law is Mormon and she says that the Mormon church totally frowns upon this type of behavior. It is in thier rules that they always obey the law and respect the constitution. If this sicko was not excommunicated before, I am sure he is now! I was sickened by what I heard on the news. I am sure the Mormon church will not support him in the least and will gladly testify to put him away.

[Avatar]

I dunno SQ. If you have unquestioning faith in a higher being, what tells you what that being wants or purports to want?

--A

[Plissken]

Why, the Leader, of course!

[jwaneeta]

National News from The Associated Press


Mothers of Sect Children Forced to Leave Them As Texas Judge Wonders How to Handle Huge Case


Marie, a mother of three boys, members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints gets emotional while on the premises of the Yearning for Zion Ranch in Eldorado, Texas, as she responds to questions about their 11-day experience in a shelter in San Angelo,Texas Monday April 14, 2008. (AP Photo/Tony Gutierrez)
04-14-2008 9:55 PM
By JENNIFER DOBNER and MICHAEL GRACZYK, Associated Press Writers

ELDORADO, Texas (Associated Press) -- About three dozen women from a polygamist retreat, many of them mothers, say they feel betrayed by the way they were separated from the 416 children taken into state custody.

The women sobbed Monday night at the Eldorado ranch as they recounted how they were told earlier that they would have to either return to the ranch or go to a shelter if their child was older than five.

One woman, Marie, says the women weren't allowed to say goodbye to their crying children.

She says the children at the ranch have not been abused, but she feels like they are suffering abuse now.

The women believe the abuse complaint that led to the raid came from a bitter person outside the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

***

Tough shit.

I've had a long day and I'm sick of trying to be tolerant. If you trade your child to a man for any reason -- economic, social, religious -- you're not a mother at all.