Runes Part 1, Chapter 5 - Distraction

[Relayer]

The Masters never told any stories of the Land, so certainly much of the history, lore and knowledge of Earthpower was "ignored." IIRC, they apparently tried to covertly stop others from telling them. I suppose this also implies that they may have given out disinformation or told people that the stories that they'd been hearing were false. Once the Dirt appeared (does it say when?) then it would be easy to deny that Earthpower existed, since no one could sense it. Except in aliantha ... how did they explain that? I guess nobody could've seen hurtloam so no concern for the Masters there.

I think Stave implied that they tried to discourage the Giants from visiting too. Imagine trying to convince a Giant not to explore the Land of the Earthfriend and the Chosen!! That would take some serious double-talk, though it would be possible, because the Giants' memories of the Haruchai might have led them to trust. I wonder if Stave's comment "they will not return in your lifetime" indicates that the Masters forcibly stopped the Giants from their sojourns and told them to leave. Even to the point of battle?

And what the heck did they tell the people of the Stonedown about the Elohim? "Pay no attention to the man who just stepped out of thin air. You need know naught about him, and that of which he speaks is of no import." Yea right!! (I don't remember if there's a specific comment about this... must re-read). And Liand appears to be the only one who's aware enough (or has enough balls) to wonder?

[wayfriend]

Well, the Masters own Revelstone. Revelstone and the demised Revelwood were the centers of learning, and that's where history would be recorded, saved, and taught. Without those, it'd be very easy to forget ... how much do we know about life 3,500 years ago, and how much would we know if they took away all the books?

No, thirty-five hundred years is a powerful long time. Without any concerted effort to maintain history, history would be forgotten.

But you also have to consider that the Masters could not have eradicated the lore of earthpower without the Dirt. History is one thing; lore is used in the day-to-day work of the people of the Land. This would of necessity be passed on from generation to generation, remembered where history would be forgotten.

But the lore of Earthpower was eradicated by the Clave and the years of the Sunbane. It was never re-instituted due to Anele's mistakes. And it was never re-created due to the Dirt.

It all fits together nicely. Too nicely.

[Edit, to add]Liand is a perfect case example. Yeah, he saw something. He may wonder about it, but he'll find no answers. Under the Masters, maybe his kids will one day remember that their dad had a mystery on his hands. But in five generations? No one will remember that weird thing that happened to Liand.

Finally --- The people of the Land apparently cannot write. This has been discussed in earlier chronicles. Think how easy the Master's job is with that working in their favor.

[Aleksandr]

That was certainly a large enough event that people lived through, not simply heard about. Every single surviver would have a heritage which included this massive change in their civilization, in their daily lives. And these people required help to cope with their new lives, hence the reintroduction of earthpower, lore, etc. Sunder and Hollian would have taught them these things.

Yes, they knew the Sunbane ended, but they didn't know how or why, and from their perspetive the Sunbane's ending was a calamity in and of itself because it was the only way they knew how to live. Without a sun of fertility how did they grow crops? The end of WGW makes it plain that Linden was unable to regenerate the Land's lost flora and fauna. Donaldson really needs to explain how anyone survived at all when it would have taken months to grow new crops from the empty soil. Sunder and Hollian certainly helped with the Staff, but they couldn't be everywhere at once, and Anele's account makes it sound like they burned themselves out in their urgency to heal all they could. Also, the Land didn't just rebound all at once; in fact the broken Laws stayed broken. The Earthpower may never have revived entirely. Something is still wrong with it, as Kevin's Dirt makes plain. And now 3600 years have passed. 3600 years ago in our history the cataclysmic eruption of the volcano Thera destroyed the Minoan civilization-- if it weren't for recent archaeology what would we know about that event? Nothing but a vague and very distorted legend of Atlantis.

[Zarathustra]

Okay, they didn't have a written language. So? They still use the same names for places, rivers, towns, etc. Obviously, some knowledge of the past is being preserved. Don't underestimate the power of verbal histories. Mythologies. Stories. What else do these people have to do for entertainment besides tell each other stories? It seems like the end of the Sunbane and their redemption at the hands of Linden Avery and Thomas Covenant would be a fantastically popular story. After all, the Haruchai remember it. (Do they have a written language?) If it's so hard to remember the past, how come some can do it while others cannot? Obviously, the difference is . . . whatever the Haruchai did to "erase" their memories, or wipe them out, however you describe it. To assume that these people simply forgot is a) implausible and b) counter to the perpetual control of the Haruchai. If the Haruchai remember after all this time, others could too. If everyone forgot by default, then there's no reason for the Haruchai to actively suppress this knowledge for thousands of years.

IIRC, they apparently tried to covertly stop others from telling them. I suppose this also implies that they may have given out disinformation or told people that the stories that they'd been hearing were false.

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about! Now, how did they stop others from telling them? Lock them up? Beat them up? I'm telling you, the Haruchai have got to have some blood on their hands.

I wonder if Stave's comment "they will not return in your lifetime" indicates that the Masters forcibly stopped the Giants from their sojourns and told them to leave. Even to the point of battle?

Again, that's what I'm talking about!

And what the heck did they tell the people of the Stonedown about the Elohim?

Right. To think people would forget things like this is to assign virtual inhumanly amounts of disinterest to these people. Entire religions are based on events like this (or so I've heard ). They are culture- and history-changing events. To suppose that people just start forgetting about them--barring some cataclysmic event--is ludicrous.

Well, the Masters own Revelstone. Revelstone and the demised Revelwood were the centers of learning, and that's where history would be recorded, saved, and taught. Without those, it'd be very easy to forget ... how much do we know about life 3,500 years ago, and how much would we know if they took away all the books?

Well, I think stories of near-religious level events would be preserved. We certainly have plenty of flood stories preserved which arguably could be attributed to the ending of the last ice age (10,000 years ago). Those kinds of things make an impression across a wide swath of human population. Folklore preserves much through oral tradition. We haven't always had universities. Those are relatively new in human history.

Besides, it would be a mistake to ask a 21st century American how much they know about life of their ancestors 3500 years ago. We've only been on this continent for 200 years (any Native Americans here?). The people of the Land are still living in the same freakin' Stonedowns. They still call them the same name. It might be more analogous to ask a citizen of China or India, some culture that's actually been in the same place for thousands of years and actually values its epic history, rather than a young culture that is trained by society and corporate consumerism to look more to the rapidly changing future .

[Avatar]

*shrug* How many of the people, (the widely scattered people living in small communities) knew about the part of TC and Linden in the end of the sunbane in the first place? And as you suggest, how many people died in the aftermath of the Sunbanes end?

3500 years is a long long time in terms of societies. Entire civilisations crumble to dust in less than that time. And the demands of survival, especially in what appears to be a largely agrarian society in fairly tough conditions, make even an oral history of secondary importance.

Now I'm not saying that the Masters may not have blood on their hands. They certainly may. But I don't think they had to do anything to "erase" peoples memories. At most, the removal of a few links in the chain would be enough.

Sure, people would still wonder and question, but without answers to be found, it wouldn't be a productive use of their time I think.

Now your suggestion of an alaogous question is a good one. But, not only do I think that it must be asked not of any citizen, but of a peasant (which is essentially what the land dwellers were) in China or India, (i.e. tell me the tales of your ancestors living in 1,500BC), but is the culture of the land one in which epic history is treasured?

Sure, when TC arrived, they had the epic history of Kevin and the Ritual, (1,000 years before only), but it was a very different culture than even the sunbane culture, 3,500 years later than that.

(Did those living under the sunbane still remember Kevin and the Ritual? I can't remember. and there was no deliberate attempt at suppression either...)

As for religions, well, Christianity is, at a generous estimate, only around 2,000 years old. And has existed through 2,000 years of uninterrupted literacy at that.

--A

[Zarathustra]

Av, so what need is there of the Masters? No one has explained why the Masters would be necessary if the people of the Land forgot all this stuff by default.

*shrug* How many of the people, (the widely scattered people living in small communities) knew about the part of TC and Linden in the end of the sunbane in the first place? And as you suggest, how many people died in the aftermath of the Sunbanes end?

It doesn't matter how many survived. The fewer people to survive, the more concentrated the story is going to be, and the more important the story will be to them ("We're the last survivors, thanks to TC.") Didn't Anele say that Sunder and Hollian helped the people? And then they grew weary of their work after a century or so? That's 100 years of teaching people the story, showing them earthpower, etc.

Now I'm not saying that the Masters may not have blood on their hands. They certainly may. But I don't think they had to do anything to "erase" peoples memories. At most, the removal of a few links in the chain would be enough.

Fair enough. But they had to do something. What did they do to those who were appalled that their history was being forgotten, and who wanted to spread it? That's all I'm asking. Lock them up? Kill them? I want to know the mechanism. After the Ritual of Desecration, people still knew their past. After the Sunbane--which WAS a bloody, concerted effort to alter people's understanding of their history and relation to the Land--Nassic still knew about Covenant, Earthpower, and their history. Unless his single family passed the info down in an unbroken chain, there must have been others, too. (But this proves one single family is enough to keep alive a heritage even in the presence of a brutal, bloody, misinformation campaign.)

Sure, people would still wonder and question, but without answers to be found, it wouldn't be a productive use of their time I think.

We're talking about the people of the Land. The fact that there are people like Liand--the first damn Stonedowner Linden meets--shows that you can't dismiss their curiousity so easily. It requires another mechanism . . . the constant supression of the Haruchai (which still isn't enough to keep a curious kid from climbing Kevin's Watch).

. . . is the culture of the land one in which epic history is treasured?

I think we've seen plenty of evidence of this. The fact that they rebounded after the RoD shows their essential curiousity, yearning for knowledge, and desire to preserve.

Sure, when TC arrived, they had the epic history of Kevin and the Ritual, (1,000 years before only), but it was a very different culture than even the sunbane culture, 3,500 years later than that.

What made it different? The RoD was probably the most devistating thing to happen to the Land. Yet, the survivors built the society we saw in the first Chrons. Without a force actively supressing them (Clave, Masters, etc.) this seems to be their natural tendency.

(Did those living under the sunbane still remember Kevin and the Ritual? I can't remember. and there was no deliberate attempt at suppression either...)

Sure there was deliberate supression! And yes, Nassic and his family line remembered.

As for religions, well, Christianity is, at a generous estimate, only around 2,000 years old. And has existed through 2,000 years of uninterrupted literacy at that.

Surely you're not saying that all the millions of Christians throughout history were literate. Even those who could read didn't have access to a Bible in their own language (it was in Latin for centuries, wasn't it?) until Martin Luther, right? So they would have depended upon the clergy and word of mouth. Also, I thought literacy was something of a rarity until modern times. Or at least until the printing press? Anyway, there are plenty of mythological histories preserved for 1000s of years without the benefit of a literate population. Writing itself is something "fairly" new.

[Edit: and one more thing--if Earthpower can be twisted to serve the Despiser, then how is it that supressing knowledge of Earthpower serves the Despiser? Without Earthpower, you can't have things like RoD. It is not the supression of Earthpower itself which serves the Despiser; it certainly doesn't get him out of his prison. It is the magnification of Despair which serves the Despiser. Oh well, I'm sure that SRD will figure out a way that all of this magnifies despair. ]

[Relayer]

Donaldson really needs to explain how anyone survived at all when it would have taken months to grow new crops from the empty soil.

There was aliantha, though the people had to learn from Sunder and Hollian that it was safe. And Andelain still survived. There were no crops there, but at least there was healthy soil, and plant and animal life. Maybe w/ the Staff, that was enough.

Okay, they didn't have a written language. So? They still use the same names for places, rivers, towns, etc. Obviously, some knowledge of the past is being preserved. Don't underestimate the power of verbal histories. Mythologies. Stories. What else do these people have to do for entertainment besides tell each other stories?

I agree. The peoples of the Land/Earth preserve their past in stories which is not like we do in our world (at least not now)... they remember and tell them accurately through the ages. (not to say that groups like the Clave and Masters don't distort or hide stories too). Before the time of the Chronicles, the people of the Land told stories far back into their past; it is impled that this continued after the 1st Chronicles for a very long time; only the influence of the Clave caused those stories to become warped or forgotten. The Masters themselves certainly remember back to times before they ever came to the Land and met Kevin. The Giants, obviously. The Waynhim of Hamako's rhysh remember the time of Lord Mhoram's Victory.

Spoiler

When we meet the Ramen, we find that they remember events from 7000 years past in detail.

So, this appears to be a common trait among the people. Everyone forgetting about the redemption from the Sunbane without active suppression isn't likely.

The example I think of in our world is Native Americans, who valued their history and re-told their stories for thousands of years until the time of the Western cultural invasion. Same for the Oriental cultures.

...society and corporate consumerism...

The Clave is active in our wounded world, too. I've always seen the Clave as a comment (intended by SRD or not) on our society. We've been cut off from our sources, from our true history... we live in a world that does not honor our true selves... (this should go in the Think Tank or somewhere )

Sure, when TC arrived, they had the epic history of Kevin and the Ritual, (1,000 years before only), but it was a very different culture than even the sunbane culture, 3,500 years later than that.

They had history from before that time (Berek, etc.) and knew of even older stories (One Forest). SRD doesn't write extra history like Tolkien, but it's implied that much more about the past was known.

As for religions, well, Christianity is, at a generous estimate, only around 2,000 years old. And has existed through 2,000 years of uninterrupted literacy at that.

Except for the few powerful, rich, or connected with the Church, most of the peoples of Europe were not literate. They did preserve their stories, but their own folk traditions were basically overrun and marginalized by the teachings of the Church. (another subject for a different forum...)

We're talking about the people of the Land.

Enough said!! This is why I fell in love with the Chronicles in the first place!!!

[Avatar]

How many of the people were literate doesn't matter. As Malik said, they relied on the clergy whose job it was to keep the story alive. Without them, I wonder how the story would have competed with the need to be up at dawn, work all day, and collapse into bed in the dark, the constant political upheavel, (which of course used the story for their own ends), etc.

That's my point sorta...the masses rely on a few for that sort of knowledge/rememberance. If those few are taken away, what's left will be fragments of half-remembered stories that get more and more distorted as time passes. The old broken telephone syndrome.

Somebody still has to be literate to pass them accurately.

*shrug* Perhaps what throws me here is the use of the phrase "erase their memories." That implies some concerted and deliberate single effort. The way I see it is that the Masters encouraged the fading of those memories. We know it's not enough, as Malik points out, Liand was ceratinly curious enough to defy them, and no doubt others were too.

As for the numbers, surely the more concentrated the story is, the easier it is to suppress it?

And while Nassic kept the tale alive, nobody else really believed it, did they? If TC had bumped into anybody else, he would have gotten a blank look when he announced himself. "Ur-what?"

What made the cultures different? A different environment made them different. Surely you're not suggesting that the pre-sunbane land dwellers were culturally/socially the same as the sun-bane dwellers?

--A

[Zarathustra]

Okay, I see there's no convincing you. However, I'd still like to know just what it is the Masters are doing if there's nothing for them to do. If all they did was "encourage the fading of memories," then they've succeeded and there's nothing left for them to do, except chase giants away and hassle Anele. I suppose they still offer protection from threats both mundane and otherwise (caesures, black storms, etc.), but Stave made it sound a lot worse than just "tending their flock." He made it sound like there was still an active, concerted effort going on now. But in your mind, not only is this untrue, but there was never a concerted effort to begin with. Oh well, different interpretations. It's what makes this dissection so interesting. On to the next chapter!

[tonyz]

As far as early survival goes, there was <i>aliantha</i> (someone would have tried it in desperation). More importantly, there was a fertile sun rising when Linden healed the Land; we can assume it lasted long enough to get at least some things growing.

Probably some starvation and chaos, but there's a chance.

[Avatar]

...He made it sound like there was still an active, concerted effort going on now. But in your mind, not only is this untrue, but there was never a concerted effort to begin with.

No no, when I said "no concerted effort" I meant by the Clave to erase the memories of TC during the Sunbane. (Or at least, none that we have evidence of...(say, how long did the Sunbane last anyway...) )

Encourage the fading, prevent the transmission, could be fairly similar. I certainly agree that they did whatever they could to prevent people from learning more about the past. I just don't think that they would have had to physically erase the memories of people. (Or even that they could.)

--A

[Zarathustra]

I just don't think that they would have had to physically erase the memories of people. (Or even that they could.)

--A

Good lord, I hope you don't think I was implying that! No, by "erase" memories, I meant something much like what you meant, except on a much larger scale. I don't think they've developed some Haruchai version of the Men in Black flashing light thingie. Sure, "cut the chain of memories," "encourage forgetfulness," etc. That kind of stuff. Except I just don't think it could be done without violent enforcement and physical imprisonment. And I think it would take such a level of micro-management that the task would be exceedly difficult.

Ok, that's all I'll say about it!

[Avatar]

In that case, I don't think we're disagreeing as much as we thought we were.

I agree that the micro-management required would start off being a bit of a chore...but bear in mind that it would get easier and easier.

--A

[Fist and Faith]

Can't believe I never said how awesome this Dissection is!
:Hail::Hail::Hail::Hail::Hail::Hail::Hail::Hail::Hail:

[lurch]

Can't believe I never said how awesome this Dissection is!
:Hail::Hail::Hail::Hail::Hail::Hail::Hail::Hail::Hail:

inlite of the above and below,,as we ready for Jays di sect of chap 3 FR..

"Don't worry. Things will REALLY kick up a knotch once I post my awesome dissection for Chapter 3. It. Will. Be. EPIC.

.-jay

..Now,,,Linden is facing TC and Jerry with a lot of doubt on her mind,,
I think,,again..i am amazed at the coincidence between the story and the readers mind.

[Zarathustra]

[mod edit - just to be safe, I'm going to spoiler tag the following, as it contains an FR spoiler. In order to do so, I had to edit the original post slightly to remove the quote tags.]

Spoiler

Rereading this thread, I couldn't help noticing something I posted:

"About the croyal.

What might such a creature do to Jeremiah?
Again, where the hell does Linden come up with this stuff? Why think a croyal is involved at all--much less doing something to her son?"

[Fist and Faith]

[Zarathustra]

[mod edit - just to be safe, I'm going to spoiler tag the following, as it contains an FR spoiler. In order to do so, I had to edit the original post slightly to remove the quote tags.]

I was worried about it being a spoiler, too. However, since it was something I wrote before FR came out, and it is something that is actually published in Runes, I didn't think it was a spoiler. Actually, it's only a spoiler if you know what coming, and have read FR. However, I do realize that my bringing it back up and calling attention to it may create spoiler possibilities, so I respect the Mod decisions.


With that said . . . it's right there in Runes!!!

[kevinswatch]

I agree with the spoiler tag. This is a Runes dissection topic, and the post insinuates fact from specuation. I think it's best to be better safe than sorry in these cases. I've already personally had enough of FR spoiled at the Watch, most being my fault and some the fault of others.-jay