The Official Election 2008 Aftermath Thread

[Holsety]

Sorry. I was well aware of the military industrial complex speech (basically anti-imperialist and possibly leaning towards isolationism) but I forgot that in comparison to todays conservative movement

I also dug up a dead link (read it w/ google cache) that claimed, among other things, that Eisenhower had the income and capital gains tax at 90% (JESUS CHRIST!!!) for the wealthiest brackets (as they were they same in that period). Possibly/maybe layover from the depression era and WWII when govt spending was shooting up but apparently he didn't fight it during his presidency.

[Plissken]

Yeah, it was a different playing field back then, which was my point. It's not that Obama (or any of our modern Dems) are so far to the left, its that the 'Pubs have swung so far too the Right. And sorry for sounding so grumpy about it. It's a pet peeve.

(I'd love to see a comprehensive comparison between the tax and tariff laws etc. and job rates, income, benefits, savings, etc. Between now and then. Considering that those times were among the most prosperous we've had, I doubt that there would be much left of the trickledown argument.)

[Zarathustra]

Man, I feel like I walked into Crazytown . . . so Reagan was a Leftist and the current Reps have swung too far to the Right?? Here's the truth: Reagan embodied fiscal conservatism more than any other president, and it worked. (The turn around from the Carter economy was one of the most dramatic examples of economic growth in modern times.) Meanwhile, Bush runs up a 10 trillion dollar debt, gives us the largest government entitlement since the New Deal, but he's "too Right." Got it.

[The Dreaming]

Trickledown killed communism, that's why it was important. (and that was half the reason for it). Communism is dead, so it's time for us to get our act together. I don't think the answer is going to be in pumping up revenue, its going to have to be in slashing spending. That's why Obama will ultimately fail. He can't get away with slashing away at our military like Clinton did. It isn't unrestrained capitalism that got us into this economic mess, it was imprudent over-regulation and our massive debt. Nothing in Obama's plan is going to do anything but aggravate this.

[Cail]

I don't think the answer is going to be in pumping up revenue, its going to have to be in slashing spending. That's why Obama will ultimately fail. He can't get away with slashing away at our military like Clinton did.

I agree. With all the money just spent on the bailout, plus all the money that's going to need to be spent in the next few years to bailout Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security, Obama's hosed. He can't meaningfully cut spending (aside from the fact that Pelosi & Co. won't let him) in a way to offset the pile of money we're going to have to spend.

[dlbpharmd]

I don't think the answer is going to be in pumping up revenue, its going to have to be in slashing spending. That's why Obama will ultimately fail. He can't get away with slashing away at our military like Clinton did.

I agree. With all the money just spent on the bailout, plus all the money that's going to need to be spent in the next few years to bailout Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security, Obama's hosed. He can't meaningfully cut spending (aside from the fact that Pelosi & Co. won't let him) in a way to offset the pile of money we're going to have to spend.

I agree with both comments.

And guys - McCain was no more a Conservative than I am a Chippendale. His proposal of amnesty for illegal immigrants (along with uber-liberal Ted Kennedy) should be evidence enough.

[The Dreaming]

I'm a conservative in favor of open immigration laws and immigrant amnesty. I think it's the *right* position, and I was really upset when McCain ditched it.

[[Syl]]

What kind of conservative are you?

Apparently, I'm a neocon.

con·ser·va·tive (kn-sûrv-tv)
adj.
1. Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.
2. Traditional or restrained in style: a conservative dark suit.
3. Moderate; cautious: a conservative estimate.
4.
a. Of or relating to the political philosophy of conservatism.
b. Belonging to a conservative party, group, or movement.
5. Conservative Of or belonging to the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.
6. Conservative Of or adhering to Conservative Judaism.
7. Tending to conserve; preservative: the conservative use of natural resources.
n.
1. One favoring traditional views and values.
2. A supporter of political conservatism.
3. Conservative A member or supporter of the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.
4. Archaic A preservative agent or principle.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative#Schools_of_conservatism

[wayfriend]

Interesting link. From that, I found this:

Modern conservatives, on the other hand, derive support for free markets from practical grounds. Free markets, they argue, are the most productive markets. Thus the modern conservative supports free markets not out of necessity, but out of expedience. The support is not moral or ideological, but driven on the Burkean notion of prescription: what works best is what is right.

One could claim that the fortunes of the Conservatives fell when free markets, or rather, free and unregulated markets, failed to be "what works".

Which I strongly believe will continue to be the case going forward. Financing has gotten very creative, and this has produced wealth, and is in and of itself good. But we now live in an interconnected, convoluted, and unfathomable network of economics, where a butterfly flapping its wings in China causes an earthquake on Wall Street. Regulation, especially buffers that protect one area from problems in another, are going to be a fact of life in order to keep our economic Tower of Babel erect.

Conservatives need to yield on their libertarian ideal of economics or else the US economy will never be safe in their hands.

[The Dreaming]

Well, we'll see I guess. Not much we can do to stop an energetic liberal hegemony. It's not that I think regulation is inherently bad, I just think that most of the time its ham-handed and stupid. Also, even regulations that are supposed to be temporary never get cut, and create whole messes of new problems (hence the housing crisis). We're going to get regulation, but is it going to be prudent regulation? No regulation is definitely a lot better than bad regulation.

[Brother Charn]

Calling someone "conservative" or "liberal" without attempting to qualify in what area one exhibits that general tendency is begging for multiple misunderstandings.
Consider this: I am conservative when it comes to limitations on Federal powers versus States' rights, as I feel that too many of the States' rights have been usurped by the judiciary in the name of interstate commerce, and by the legislature in the form of overreaching, hamfisted Federal laws that grow Federal government. The Fed simply is not poised to operate expeditiously or efficiently in most affairs concerning everyday American activities.
However, and in many cases contradictorily, I tend to be liberal when it comes to social programs, as I believe that tax spending on programs and activities designed to keep Americans healthy, functioning, and employed can be implemented as a social safety net when Life gets ugly... but these don't have to be Federal programs.

So, I am liberal in some areas, and conservative in others.

Fiscal policy? Foreign affairs? Taxation? so-called entitlement legislation? education? healthcare?
How can you presuppose that someone with the Conservative or Liberal moniker would believe one thing or another in all of those areas?

This labeling, while extremely useful in partisan slug-fests, has very little value when trying to understand where everyone is coming from. It gets in the way of real debate, because we get too caught up in the terminology and the connotations they bring to worry about the actual issues dogging the nation.

dw

[Zarathustra]

Another surprisingly positive story about Obama from Fox: link

Barack Obama's election on Tuesday set off international celebrations and ignited a fervor for the United States that has been unseen since the days immediately following the September 11, 2001, terror attacks.

To some observers, the international reaction has elevated America's president-elect to an unparalleled post: president of the world.

In Kenya, where Obama's father was born, a national holiday was declared on Thursday. In Indonesia, children danced at the school Obama attended when he was a young boy, embracing him as much for what he represents abroad as for the policies he advocates at home.

Click here to see photos of celebrations around the world.

"People from all over Africa, especially in Kenya, where this is a holiday, are feeling that the most powerful person in the world does not have to be a white guy. That's a huge breakthrough for the United States and for humanity," said Walter Russell Mead, the Henry A. Kissinger senior fellow for U.S. Foreign Policy at the Council on Foreign Relations.

"This is the fall of the Berlin Wall times ten," Rama Yade, France's junior minister for human rights, told French radio. "On this morning, we all want to be American, so we can take a bite of this dream unfolding before our eyes."

America's popularity abroad waned dramatically during the Bush administration, and some voters expressed hopes that in electing Obama, they could restore the country's image. The wave of good feelings since Tuesday night suggests that even before taking office, Obama has made substantial inroads.

"This may be the beginning of a new world. It marks the end of old elites and opens the door for new approaches worldwide," an Israeli man in his mid-50s said in Tel Aviv.

Foreign observers, who paid rapt attention during the long election season, are taking a personal stake in the outcome of a vote a world away. Expectations are high for the 47-year-old Obama, who will take over on January 20 amid a financial collapse and who will preside over two wars on his first day in office.

"The standing of everybody in the world is going to be affected by what President Obama does or doesn't do," said Mead, noting that all eyes will be looking to the new president for a way out of the global financial crisis.

In the Muslim world, the response has been mixed. A journalist with a pan-Arab news channel told FOX News that on election night, workers were going around the newsroom congratulating each other, as if Obama were their president-elect.

Iraqis have expressed skepticism that any rapid changes will come as a result of the election, but many see their fates ineluctably tied to Obama's foreign policy. "By God, the new American President Obama has promised to pull the troops out. This is in the best interest of the Iraqi people," said one Baghdadi.

Arab heads of state have been more circumspect, waiting to see whether Obama's Mideast policy will depart significantly from that of the Bush administration, and some newspapers in the Arab world have openly announced their distrust of the president-elect.

"There is no significant difference between Obama and McCain. They disagree only on the means to achieve America's chief goal, which is to rule for another hundred years," said an editorial in the Saudi daily Al-Watan, according to the Middle East Media Research Institute, which monitors the Arab press.

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad congratulated Obama Thursday for his win -- the first time an Iranian leader has welcomed an incoming president since the 1979 Islamic Revolution. And some Iranians, speaking to FOX News, said they were excited by the prospect of the coming administration.

"I want to congratulate you on Barack Obama's victory that really turned a new chapter in the world's history -- that an African-American man, decent and intelligent, became president of the world," one Iranian said.

"This was done in America. Your nation has the credit for it."

Not all observers expect this world embrace to be long-lasting. "I think overseas, as at home, opinion over the longer term will depend on what he actually does," said John Bolton, former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations.

Obama was issued an early challenge Wednesday, as Russian President Dmitry Medvedev ordered the deployment of short-range missiles near his country's border with Poland.

"Those who have issues with us are certainly not giving him a honeymoon," Bolton said of Russia's action, which may have been intended to send a cold word of welcome to Obama and to test his resolve.

Russian citizens, too, have been wary in their evaluation of the next president.

"I don't think he can really become the world political leader," said Tatyana Solomonova, a real estate agent in Moscow. "The fact that he's black can be an obstacle -- there's still a lot of racism in the world, in Europe and Russia too. I think he can take a leading role in the Western hemisphere, but not in this part of the world."

In Moscow Thursday, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, who has a history of controversial remarks, was asked by a reporter about the prospect for U.S.-Russian relations after Berlusconi met with Medvedev.

Berlusconi responded by saying that the relative youth of Medvedev, 43, and Obama should make it easier for Moscow and Washington to work together.

Then he said, smiling: "I told the president that [Obama] has everything needed in order to reach deals with him: he's young, handsome and even tanned."

Italian news agencies said Berlusconi later defended his remark, calling the statement "a great compliment."

"Why are they taking it as something negative? ... If they have the vice of not having a sense of humor, worse for them," the ANSA news agency quoted him as saying.

But Italy's only black lawmaker, Jean-Leonard Touadi, called the comment embarrassing.

"In the United States, a joke like that wouldn't just be politically incorrect, but a great offense to this amazing example of integration, which it seems the Italian premier should take as an example," Touadi said.

For good or ill, all eyes are now on Obama.

"Not everybody is going to get what they want, but this is a moment of hope," said Mead, who added that Obama was sure to fall short of some expectations.

"If you look at Jesus Christ, he walked on water and fed the 5,000 and he ended up getting crucified, so I think it's not unlikely that President-elect Obama is gonna disappoint some people also."

[dlbpharmd]

Can someone explain to me how Barney Frank was re-elected? The man is hip-deep in the Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac melt down.

[Cail]

It'd be really easy to make a joke about the electorate in Massachusetts (dry, sober, and at home with his wife), but I'll try to take the high road...

The reason that people like Frank, Kennedy, Hoyer, Helms, and the rest of the bottom-feeding career politicians keep getting reelected is because they have totally duped their voters into thinking that they're indispensable.

[aliantha]

The reason that people like Frank, Kennedy, Hoyer, Helms, and the rest of the bottom-feeding career politicians keep getting reelected is because they have totally duped their voters into thinking that they're indispensable.

Agreed. It's a clear case of "Throw the bums out! But not *my* bum. *My* bum's okay."

[Lord Mhoram]

I don't live in Barney Frank's district but to me the notion of him losing his seat is unthinkable. Not only is he a major political institution in Greater Boston, he's a huge force in Washington insider politics. That's a rare combination for a House member to have. This doesn't necessarily mean he's qualified (although he is of course) but it lends him more than enough political capital to continue winning for however long he wants.

[Cail]

LM, I say the following without a bit of sarcasm or acrimony....

You're an intelligent guy. How on Earth can you possibly defend that statement? What does his being "a major political institution in Greater Boston" have to do with anything? Likewise, what does being "a huge force in Washington insider politics" have to do with anything? Basically, you're stating that his being a member of the good-'ol boy network somehow should mean something.

Yes, I know that in the real world it does, but you could make the exact same statement about Jesse Helms (without the Boston thing), and I don't think you'd defend him.

[Harbinger]

In the first two days after the election, the stock market has taken its largest two day drop in 21 years. Wealthy people are unloading. Why wouldn't they? If you already have enough to live comfortably or retire, why would you risk it now- especially with larger capital gains taxes to look forward to.

[[Syl]]

Can someone explain to me how Barney Frank was re-elected.

Same way Ted Stevens was. Seven counts of corruption don't quite balance out what he does for his constituents, which, in the end, is what really matters. Our opinions... don't.

[Lord Mhoram]

Cail,

Read what I said again. I'm saying why he was reelected, not why he should be. I do know for a fact that his opponent was unqualified and not at all a compelling candidate. But surely all of you bemoaning his reelection have well researched his Republican opponent, unlike the vulgar "electorate in Massachusetts"?