It happens.jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:Wait. Wait.
Did...no...
Dis Attest and Worm just agree on something???
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No such thing, though there are dumb questions! :pTuriya Foul wrote:Or maybe I'm putting too much conjecture into this.
He wouldn't be able to make decisions if he were only pure structure. While it's a nice idea, I think it's a case of "writer's sequelitis". But don't get me wrong, to me Vain is one of my alltime favorite concepts/characters in fanta-fi.Worm wrote:But if you were to filter out from Being itself everything that gives it being except for its structure, and then give it form, that will give Vain.
Vain is an avatar or reification of pure Structure, but I never said he was "only" pure structure. Magic and lore gives it shape and form. Furthermore, Vain makes no decisions of his own, he is a programmed computer or extremely complex machine. And you can see from his behavior that his programming consists of very simple "if-then" statements. That is far and away from saying that Vain is "only" pure structure. So you're right, pure structure couldn't get the ur-viles very far unless they gave him or it some rudimentary programming to make decisions for him.jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:No such thing, though there are dumb questions! :pTuriya Foul wrote:Or maybe I'm putting too much conjecture into this.
He wouldn't be able to make decisions if he were only pure structure. While it's a nice idea, I think it's a case of "writer's sequelitis". But don't get me wrong, to me Vain is one of my alltime favorite concepts/characters in fanta-fi.Worm wrote:But if you were to filter out from Being itself everything that gives it being except for its structure, and then give it form, that will give Vain.
Some points that require considering, to date, all attacks on Vain that have been successful have been Lore-Based. Sangorgons have no Lore.Turiya Foul wrote:I dunno if this counts as a spoiler or not, so I'm going to hide it anyway.
But I can't see one of the lofty Elohim devoting himself or herself to the learning of the lore required to unmake Vain. Granted, the waters of the river caused him pain (was the water corrosive? I can't recall if it was or not...) but the sunlight seemed to anneal any damage done. (Can sunlight be considered Earthpowerful? The Sunbane wasn't physically related to the Sun - it was in the atmosphere and reacted with the Sun's light. Do celestial bodies lie within the Arch? The moon was certainly affected by Lord Foul's machinations in the 1st chrons.)Spoiler
Since the Harrow put all that time into learning about the entire line (the Viles begat the Demondim that begat the Waynhim and the ur-viles that begat Vain the demondim-spawn) I have a little trouble seeing the faery Elohim being able to unmake Vain at any time. Perhaps there's a power differential between Elohim and Insequent that I haven't seen yet.
That Vain is a "structure" seems true. And he'd have to be a fairly specialized structure in order to react with the Elohim's substance in the presence of wild magic. But he had lore, too. In TWL, at TC's use of Vain's command, Vain demonstrated some strange power to crush the hearts (and perhaps other vital organs?) of the Illearth-fragment-affected villagers persuing and attempting to kill TC. He didn't touch them. That sounds like lore to me.
The Clave burned Vain with rukh-fire. He bled, and his wounds had to heal (they were re-opened when he scaled the side of Revelstone with the tree). If Vain didn't defend himself against a Sandgorgon, he would be crushed, as Hergrom was crushed. But that would be a debilitating injury - whereas the burn from the Clave was not. I believe his level of activity and responsiveness relied on his perception of danger to his being. Painful and possibly corrosive Elohim water? Swim like hell and then sunbathe. Bunch of fanatics waving rather hot sticks? Ow, but not too bad. Disgruntled Elohim attempting to sling me into a lake of magma? Hang on for dear sweet life and purpose. Vain wasn't nearly the comatose darling we'd like to believe... "Lalalala, ooh, wild magic, smile really pretty... Lalalala, ooh, carry Linden to safety over gravelling that doesn't burn me, whee..." (Yet more indestructibility there. Or perhaps the absence of voluntary destructibility...)
Or maybe I'm putting too much conjecture into this.
It's a matter I'd prefer to delve into in as little detail as possible, simply because the answers are mostly speculative. The whole "Structure Incarnate" side of things and the associate Lore.TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:I was hoping that someone would come up with a certain point about Vain being pure structure that would be more difficult to answer. Oh well.