Pantheon - Discussions on the Future

[Arcadia]

Montressor wrote:

I think priests and the player's official church should be a more fundamental aspect of the game. Indeed, I think it should be impossile to play without constantly using them.

Xar wrote:

On the other hand, this would make specific characters more important within the scope of the game - an "elite" akin to great and renowned heroes, priests, and scholars of different churches, well-known everywhere for their power and influence.

I am really digging these ideas. I love the idea of a hero that is not necessarily a prophet.

[Xar]

The dilating turns is another great idea! Even though we use the term in-game, the "Ages" of Eiran are certainly a thing for the players, not the characters. It's laughable to call P1's 4 1/2 and P2's 6 1/2 years "Ages." It would make sense to have the first few turns take at least a couple years each (Game-time, Xar, NOT processing time!!!!!!!!! ), with potential for slow-moving, sweeping changes in the world's inhabitants, and relatively large growth for us; followed by the later turns being only a season each, with events that can be powerful, but little possibility of growth for us.

I actually meant the other way around, with turns representing longer and longer periods of time the further we go into the game. So that if Turn 1 represented one year of game time, Turn 10 might represent 5 years and Turn 20 might represent 10 years... this would represent a deity's growing detachment from the day-to-day operations in the material plane as he or she grows more powerful and transcendent. It would work especially well if the deity in question was actually an ascended mortal - underscoring the gradual but inexorable change in perspective from a time-limited mortal to a timeless deity.

[Avatar]

Some good ideas.

I like the time dilation idea, although combining it with "named" (i.e. special) characters may cause problems after a few turns...your prophet would die every turn.

Still, a church hierarchy might obviate that...the high priest is always the prophet, say.

--A

[Xar]

Some good ideas.

I like the time dilation idea, although combining it with "named" (i.e. special) characters may cause problems after a few turns...your prophet would die every turn.

Still, a church hierarchy might obviate that...the high priest is always the prophet, say.

--A

Well, you would have different options regarding "Prophets" in this case... depending on the deity, you might have a Prophet from a long-lived race, or you might have a succession of High Priests who are your Prophets, or you might have a Prophet who received longevity from you as a blessing...

Probably with the time dilation you wouldn't be limited to one physical Prophet but rather to only one person with Prophethood at any given time - if he dies, you bestow it on another one.

[Madadeva]

I would eliminate the permanent DRP cost for a prophet. Since they are so squishy , a permanent DRP incents shifting action to other characters.

[Fist and Faith]

Sheesh, I'm pretty tired these days. How the hell did I read that backwards???
Well, I see what you mean. Still, I like it my way. When we're bigger, we'll have more power and more interaction. So I'll want more of a direct hand in events. Yes, I would have more detachment with my followers, but I'd want to keep a close eye on how my power is being used.

Plus, since the games never go nearly long enough, my way would let an Age last at least a certain amount of time. Turns 1-10 my way would be more years than they would yours.

[Menolly]

Probably with the time dilation you wouldn't be limited to one physical Prophet but rather to only one person with Prophethood at any given time - if he dies, you bestow it on another one.

Along with permanently sacrificing a DRP each time?
No thanks.

I'll need to see the rules for a Fourth Age, but I hope the Third Age lasts far longer than previous Ages. I have a feeling based on what I'm reading that I'll be slipping back in to lurker mode for the Fourth Age...

*I hate change and conflict*

~*~edit~*~

You posted as I was composing, Creator.
What he said regarding prophet DRP...

[Fist and Faith]

OK, we actually DO have a pretty big problem developing here. Every one of Xar's posts in this thread is another deity that didn't get processed. Can the chatter, folks!

[Xar]

Probably with the time dilation you wouldn't be limited to one physical Prophet but rather to only one person with Prophethood at any given time - if he dies, you bestow it on another one.

Along with permanently sacrificing a DRP each time?
No thanks.

I'll need to see the rules for a Fourth Age, but I hope the Third Age lasts far longer than previous Ages. I have a feeling based on what I'm reading that I'll be slipping back in to lurker mode for the Fourth Age...

*I hate change and conflict*

~*~edit~*~

You posted as I was composing, Creator.
What he said regarding prophet DRP...

No, in this system probably you wouldn't pay for single Prophets but for "one Prophethood", sort of like an exalted title you pass from worshiper to worshiper... so if your Prophet dies, you simply bestow the title to another one. You would only sacrifice DRPs if you wanted to create additional Prophethoods, which would also be transferable.

[Arcadia]

That's good. As one who has lost a multitude of prophets, I like the transfer Xar mentions. That makes sense.

[[Syl]]

Is Orion (P-3, ha!) winding down then? I have my new character ready to go.

I endorse Montressor's suggestion of multiple deities per realm. I'm also down with the longer, dilating time between turns, though I suggest rather than using a formula, Xar adjusts the time as he sees fit according to the needs of the story, stating the time frame along with the deadline.

I have a fairly major suggestion, one that might not jive with other players right away but I think may grow on them if they consider it -- Don't give entire cities to deities. Think about how rare it is for an entire town to follow one religion, especially in a polytheistic culture. I think establishing a temple should be as big of a step as claiming a village is now. For that matter, just because a sailor may primarily consider himself a worshiper of Jupiter doesn't mean he won't offer a prayer or give at the temple of another god if he needs their blessing. A god can still set his religion up as a monotheism, but it really shouldn't be easy (or even dignified below a certain DR). Same thing for converting a king or even a smaller regional leader.

As is, I think Pantheon goes into Risk territory (no pun intended) too easily, when it's really a game about competitive theology.

[Arcadia]

I think that is a stupendous idea, Syl, and I'm glad you are coming back for P4. You've been missed.

I would also like to request that Elves are one of the races. I wanted to use them this time but they weren't available for P3.

But all this talk of P4 is getting me very excited. I have a couple different ideas but I cant decide which one I will chooose.

[Menolly]

I totally agree with worshippers occasionally offering a prayer up to other deities as well. Heck, cho has been known to send a request for good thoughts towards another, even if the deity wasn't told since non-DRP blessings aren't allowed. But The AllFather was told what she was thinking...

Aned even if everyone is dead set on destroying Eiran, I would appreciate a tie-in somehow in a new setting. I like the history and artifacts. If there is a way of combining a new setting with what has been established, I might be accepting of that. But I still strongly agree with all the points for continuing to play on Eiran that Stone pointed out here, on the first page of this thread.

[lucimay]

Is Orion (P-3, ha!) winding down then? I have my new character ready to go.

I endorse Montressor's suggestion of multiple deities per realm. I'm also down with the longer, dilating time between turns, though I suggest rather than using a formula, Xar adjusts the time as he sees fit according to the needs of the story, stating the time frame along with the deadline.

I have a fairly major suggestion, one that might not jive with other players right away but I think may grow on them if they consider it -- Don't give entire cities to deities. Think about how rare it is for an entire town to follow one religion, especially in a polytheistic culture. I think establishing a temple should be as big of a step as claiming a village is now. For that matter, just because a sailor may primarily consider himself a worshiper of Jupiter doesn't mean he won't offer a prayer or give at the temple of another god if he needs their blessing. A god can still set his religion up as a monotheism, but it really shouldn't be easy (or even dignified below a certain DR). Same thing for converting a king or even a smaller regional leader.

As is, I think Pantheon goes into Risk territory (no pun intended) too easily, when it's really a game about competitive theology.

baddabing baddaboom! yes yes yes! agree whole-heartedly.

all the suggestions here are interesting and the more you all talk about it,
the more i want to play again. a lot of my problems with figuring out how to play would be solved with some of the suggestions in this thread (and most pointedly, the time thing, the domain thing, and this here syl post)

my largest problem with trying to figure out how to play has always been conceptual, does the domain create the deity or does the deity create the domain? (a sort of chicken/egg question which plagues me in regard to
how the deity operates within the world). as creator will tell you, i'm a
detail person and everything has got to make sense for me to know how
to work it. the DRP thing has always eluded me as it always seemed
like such a sort of monetary system that was incongruous in my understanding of how a god might operate. i know i know, power is power, but...bartering power via a point system just didn't make any
sense to me and i didn't really know how to reconcile it.
another thing that plagued me is how to actually ROLE play.
i didn't want to just "role-play" in posts on the forum, i wanted
the characters to interact more in the world and thus in our game
narratives. i just couldn't seem to get it to happen to my own
satisfaction. of course that could just be a failure on my part to get
anyone to interact with my characters or narratives. heh.

and nothing i created with any of my narratives in p2 or p3 "took" as it
were. whereas many other players' creations have had impact on the
game and the playing long after, my stuff is nowhere evident on eiren,
(or if it is i haven't seen evidence of it in the game threads).
did my stuff suck that bad? really? that was kind of disappointing and
i have to conclude that i simply did not play "correctly" on some level.

so i think a lot of the suggestions here in this thread would help me be
a better player and i really do want to play again.

okay done blathering.

[I'm Murrin]

A lot of good ideas floating round in here, I only really have one issue with them: They really punish someone who doesn't intend to play to grow, play for power.
I have a deity in mind that would be very difficult to play successfully in the current Pantheon, but I want to try it just for the experience. In a Pantheon with some of these changes, it'd be pretty much impossible to play the character the way I want to play it.
I'm trying to say this without giving away my planned deity, but I'm already giving too much information.

Note: Selfish opinions regarding my own desired gameplay should not be taken as word against improvement of the game as a whole.

[[Syl]]

I know what you mean, Murrin. The character I'm planning is a pretty big departure from what I've done previously and, I believe, what anyone else has done. I'm not sure how it will work even without any changes. But... I'd really like to see a more stable environment. And who knows, it could even work in my favor.

[Menolly]

A lot of good ideas floating round in here, I only really have one issue with them: They really punish someone who doesn't intend to play to grow, play for power.

*nodding*

I like gaining DRP, enabling me to do more empowered actions.
But my play has never focused on growing or gaining power.
And I doubt it ever will...

[Madadeva]

I think the random event process would have to be materially changed as well. I would eliminate most 'coarse' follower action events (random splinters, zealots, etc.) as they incent 'coarse' results (e.g., spend DRP to kill them all, etc.). Rather I would focus on coarse 'natural events' (e.g, storms, volcanos, etc.) and only subtle follower events (e.g., follower writes a book - do I support or not; child of destiny - do I find or not.)

It should also be challenging to 'level a city' or 'continent' if we want to emphasize long term 'story development'. I am less likely to try to develop a rich story and interweave my characters with another dieties characters if someone can spend 1 or even 5 DRP and wipe 'em all out in the blink of an eye.

To be clear, I can have fun either way! . The 'pace' of P3 and the reach of power effects my play. Followers are 'pieces to be moved' and fun is in creative ways to use my domains and follower classes and some individuals to effect end results (inlcuding follower and DRP growth.). While I am attached to some, the ease with which they can be removed by a random event, NPC event, or player event has conditioned me not to invest to much time in character or culture development.

[Dagon]

I think the random event process would have to be materially changed as well. I would eliminate most 'coarse' follower action events (random splinters, zealots, etc.) as they incent 'coarse' results (e.g., spend DRP to kill them all, etc.). Rather I would focus on coarse 'natural events' (e.g, storms, volcanos, etc.) and only subtle follower events (e.g., follower writes a book - do I support or not; child of destiny - do I find or not.)

Wholeheartedly agree. I find myself throwing DRP's at generic brigands at least once every turn.

Also, perhaps it would be beneficial to create a system to represent sphere of influence on the map. The way the map is right now we can glean what villages are converted and where, but not necessarily the exact territory claimed by the deity (i.e. the lands surrounding the villages). Perhaps the lands claimed could be colored, something like Balon's territory map for Aesir: kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17335

[Menolly]

Perhaps the lands claimed could be colored, something like Balon's territory map for Aesir: kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17335

uhm...no.

I don't think I would find that such a good idea...