Fort Hood Shooting

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Zarathustra
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Fort Hood Shooting

Post by Zarathustra »

I'm sure you all have heard by now. A Muslim U.S. Army major killed 12 and injured 31. I feel it is important to mention that he is a Muslim, given how most of the news coverage I saw tonight chose to downplay that aspect, and even concoct unfounded pyscho-babble theories on why he shot his fellow soldiers.

This man was upset about his recent assignment to fight overseas in the Middle East, and yet he had no problem unloading on unarmed American soldiers. He compared suicide bombers to soldiers who throw themselves on grenades. He said that Muslims should rise up and fight American soldiers in the Middle East, and yet the media is still wondering what motivated him?? They don't think that a Muslim saying that other Muslims should rise up and fight soldiers--and then taking that advice himself--is a relevant aspect of all this?

I've alread posted about this is several threads. So many aspects of this incident are deeply troubling. (Not the least of which is our President's "shout out" reaction.) But I'll leave you with this critique of MSNBC's coverage tonight. The way our media is handling this story is nearly as important as the story itself. If we can't see this for what it is--and blame it on post traumatic stress disorder (for a man who never saw combat)--then we're in serious trouble. When our media is making excuses for it, we're in trouble. If political correctness can allow our media to cover up a Muslim terrorist attack against our soldiers on our own soil, by one of our own soldiers--not to mention even allowing this terrorist to remain on active duty--we're in serious trouble.
To MSNBC, the Least Important Thing about Killer Army Doctor is He was a Muslim Who Compared Suicide Bombers to Soldiers who Throw Themselves on Grenades to Protect Others: Meltdown with Keith Olbermann Part 14
2009 November 5

While every other news channel at the top of the hour led with the mass murders committed by Army psychiatrist Major Malik Nadal Hasan, Keith Olbermann led Countdown with a hysterical rant about the health care demonstration at the Capitol, implying it was treasonous, seditious activity by the Republican Party, a call to violence, racist, and reminiscent of Apartheid South Africa.

Keith Olbermann could connect the dots between one offensive sign at the anti-socialized medicine rally at the Capitol today, racism, and the Republican leadership; but the fact that Hasan had been in some hot water with the Army for an internet post where he said that suicide bombers were comparable to soldiers who sacrificially throw themselves on a grenade to protect their comrades in arms did not strike him as a salient point.

While MSNBC hosts Matthews, Olbermann and Maddow all mentioned that Hasan was distraught over an imminent deployment to Iraq, and sometimes mentioned he was against the war, none emphasized that he was a Muslim who made statements that the Muslims should “stand up” against American forces in the Middle East.

NBC News Terrorism Analyst Roger Cressey pointed out to Chris Matthews that the “pasty white kid” who is the al Qaeda American spokesman called for just such actions, but that was the last of that kind of talk for the night on the network.

Matthews kept going on sympathetically about PTSD, and the “horrendous things” that Hasan must had heard as an Army psychiatrist. But in a fairly long career as an Army shrink, Hasan had never been deployed overseas.

But that fits the liberal media template. Military service can drive you nuts.

I’m guessing no one on this network will EVER point out that it may be a measure of political correctness that this guy was still on active duty at all, with these danger signs. Was someone afraid to be accused of cashiering an “outspoken Muslim,” because of “profiling?”

Former FBI profiler Cliff van Zandt did mention to Olbermann that Hasan may have had a “secondary” religious motive. Of course, in van Zandt’s experience, serial or mass murderers who claim a religious motive are usually covering for something else, in many cases a psychosexual fantasy.

But this is no “God told me to purge those women” run of the mill psycho; and a not insignificant portion of his co-religionists have gone on suicide missions with religion as a PRIMARY motive.

And a half hour into Rachel Maddow’s show, the word Muslim has not come up, though his degree from Virginia Tech, scene of another mass shooting has been come up in an ironic context few times—and Mark Benjamin of Salon emphasized “secondary PTSD” as the most likely motive, with no basis for that theory, followed by Christopher Smith of Rolling Stone saying that the military is negligent in treating PTSD, and relating lots of stories about disturbed veterans.

Once again folks, HASAN HAS NEVER DEPLOYED OVERSEAS.

But back to Countdown. Remember the format. Olbermann led with his hysterical rant about the supposed rebellion at the Capitol today, but that made it the 5th story in his top 5. Next, was Cliff van Sant and an attempt at profiling Hasan.

That made Fort Hood Keith Olbermann’s NUMBER 4 STORY OF THE DAY!

Number 1? The earth shattering revelation that conservatives from Dick Army to Sarah Palin have contradictory opinions over the meaning of the Congressional race in New York 23, edging out Rush Limbaugh making the Worst Person in the World list for a joke about “anal poisoning.”

No, I’m not kidding.

Yeah, it’s FOX that’s not a real news organization.
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As I said in another thread, time for name change. I thought I invented it as a sheltered 16-yr-old aspiring fantasy writer. I thought it was cool when I realized it was a real name. But now it just reminds me of terrorists and murders.

Don't worry, you'll get used to it. :)
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Post by [Syl] »

Army docs, I tell you. They're all sociopaths. Add the Hippocratic Oath to the numerous others he just shat upon.

I'm surprised and disappointed he's not dead.
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But considering how the new handle just rolls off the tongue (and fingers), go with it. :mrgreen:
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Post by Usivius »

He said that Muslims should rise up and fight American soldiers in the Middle East, and yet the media is still wondering what motivated him?? They don't think that a Muslim saying that other Muslims should rise up and fight soldiers--and then taking that advice himself--
?... I am a bit of an outsider to this, but after reading much of the Canadian news and CNN news about this, I don't recall any reliable sources quoting him in any such way.

The US media always seems to be an extreme, either left or right. It really boggles the mind, the stuff that is left out, or stuff added, just to make an editorial type point. Why can't news reports simply report the news in as much a neutral point as possible.

sorry, just my 2 cents on ths circus that is 'media'.

But it is a sad tragedy that should never have happened. I am glad he is not dead ... I think to a certain point people want a little closure ... find out what the heck was going on in his brain! Why did he do this?...
then let the 'justice' of the nation try him.
Sad.
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

Syl wrote:
But considering how the new handle just rolls off the tongue (and fingers), go with it. :mrgreen:
Yeah.....why couldn't you have picked "Truman" or something?
You'd make a good Truman.
I do understand why you want to change it but....I have to say it......
if they make you change your name the terrorists have won!

Dude, I don't know about anyone else but I'm not typing that name out.
You're going to be Z if you keep it.
:lol:
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Post by hierachy »

A horrible crime... just like those being committed by soldiers in the middle east every day.

Costumed killers. Nothing more.
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Post by ParanoiA »

Zarathustra wrote:I'm sure you all have heard by now. A Muslim U.S. Army major killed 12 and injured 31. I feel it is important to mention that he is a Muslim, given how most of the news coverage I saw tonight chose to downplay that aspect, and even concoct unfounded pyscho-babble theories on why he shot his fellow soldiers.

This man was upset about his recent assignment to fight overseas in the Middle East, and yet he had no problem unloading on unarmed American soldiers. He compared suicide bombers to soldiers who throw themselves on grenades. He said that Muslims should rise up and fight American soldiers in the Middle East, and yet the media is still wondering what motivated him?? They don't think that a Muslim saying that other Muslims should rise up and fight soldiers--and then taking that advice himself--is a relevant aspect of all this?
Sorry, but it's entirely reasonable to thoughtfully consider his motivations. So far, there are three possible motivations and his "Muslim-ness" is the least impressive excuse for this behavior - based on the information we know at this point.

Motivation 1 - He's a proud muslim disturbed about the notion of killing other muslims in a war he does not support - an absolute moral dilemma of the religious order. American christians can relate to such moral conflicts of religious direction and man's laws. He joined the army before 9/11, and thus had no reason to believe he'd ever be invading a muslim nation.

Motivation 2 - harassed and taunted by peers over his "muslim-ness". Uh..Columbine anyone? So here we have a guy being picked and harassed about his religious beliefs and his choices of association by ignorant fools and idiots. We know that this pisses people off to the point of violence. And we also know that while they crossed a unforgiveable moral line, they were provoked by others who crossed a moral line initially.

Motivation 3 - PTSD. It's fine if you want to believe psychological illness is bullshit. Go ahead and believe in invisible men in the sky too - but neither is based on substantiated reality. Suicide rates are high for physicians, and I think soldiers are up there too, so it's not a stretch to conclude excessive stress and conflict - this is substantiated. This guy is fulfilling a role of psychologist working with soldiers coming back from war waged against primarily muslims. I see plenty of room for a human mind to be mangled by that much internal conflict.

It is ridiculous to ignore two major motivations, particularly when you synthesize them, merely because you're stuck on his muslim status. This is akin to a black man crying racism because he lost a job to a white dude, after being late for the 10th time in a month.

Yes, he's muslism. But the reason why it's not as interesting as you'd like it to be is because of equally possible, if not more possible, motivations and he has not shown to be a part of any extremist group. The crap he's posted and said is posted and said by plenty of folks that aren't even muslim. How far would I have to search this site to find similar remarks?

BTW, it is a sacrifice to die as a suicide/homocide bomber. It is a fairly objective observation to realize its similarity to jumping on a grendade to protect your buddies. Any american that sacrificed himself in such a way against an imperial power that invaded and took over our country would be a freakin' hero. That's not sympathy for their cause, that's objective analysis.

I can't speak for the motivations of KO, or MSNBC, but I appreciate the outcome. I'm glad, for once, that humans are trying to cautiously approach the culture clash in this war and environment of terrorism. It would be too easy to just suspect every muslim on the planet and let that prejudice misguide our judgment. I'm not just talking about "fair treatment" - I'm talking about tactical strategy. If you don't understand the dynamics of a conflict or allow your prejudices to cloud your judgment, you stand a better chance of losing the fight to your enemy.

Most importantly - we don't know squat yet. So far, we have 3 really good reason why he may have done this - and any of those 3 can combine with the other to make an even more valid explanation. This is not about sympathy or coddling the PC police, this is about being accurate about our accusations.

So maybe MSNBC doesn't have noble intentions on their coverage, but I'm damn glad they're not latching on to "muslim" as if that's the only freakin' thing that matters.
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Post by Avatar »

So far, I believe that there is no evidence that he was responsible for the internet posts which supposedly made comparisons like those in the headline. Suspicions, but that's all so far.
LinkAt least six months ago, Hasan came to the attention of law enforcement officials because of internet postings about suicide bombings and other threats, including posts that equated suicide bombers to soldiers who throw themselves on a grenade to save the lives of their comrades.

They had not determined for certain whether Hasan is the author of the posting, and a formal investigation had not been opened before the shooting, said law enforcement officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because they are not authorised to discuss the case.
The article linked above though does suggest that there were some troubling issues though.

And let's be clear on this, he wasn't just a doctor, he was a shrink. :D Psychiatrist in fact. Well known that they're mental.

On the other hand, if it turns out that his religious beliefs led to this, by all means they should be examined and talked about.

As for the name, sorry...you can call yourself anything you like...you're still going to be Malik to me for the foreseeable future. Takes me a long time to assimilate a name change. Like...a couple of years. :D Just ask Tazz. I mean Marv. :lol:

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Post by Cagliostro »

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
Syl wrote:
But considering how the new handle just rolls off the tongue (and fingers), go with it. :mrgreen:
Yeah.....why couldn't you have picked "Truman" or something?
You'd make a good Truman.
I do understand why you want to change it but....I have to say it......
if they make you change your name the terrorists have won!

Dude, I don't know about anyone else but I'm not typing that name out.
You're going to be Z if you keep it.
:lol:
...and if "Thus Spake" starts popping into conversations, I'll never forgive you.
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Post by Avatar »

Too late. :D

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Post by Menolly »

Cagliostro wrote:
High Lord Tolkien wrote:
Syl wrote:
But considering how the new handle just rolls off the tongue (and fingers), go with it. :mrgreen:
Yeah.....why couldn't you have picked "Truman" or something?
You'd make a good Truman.
I do understand why you want to change it but....I have to say it......
if they make you change your name the terrorists have won!

Dude, I don't know about anyone else but I'm not typing that name out.
You're going to be Z if you keep it.
:lol:
...and if "Thus Spake" starts popping into conversations, I'll never forgive you.
And things like this?

*hightails it out of here, since I'll never get caught sticking my head in the 'tank, if I can help it* ;)
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Post by Zarathustra »

Paranoia wrote:Sorry, but it's entirely reasonable to thoughtfully consider his motivations. So far, there are three possible motivations and his "Muslim-ness" is the least impressive excuse for this behavior - based on the information we know at this point.
Well, then it's entirely reasonable and thoughtful for me to consider his "Muslim-ness." There is absolutely nothing about the information we know at this point that would point to PTSD. I never said that PTSD was bullshit. I doubted that a man who never saw combat could get it. You might as well say video games cause violence, or Rambo movies can give you PTSD. I don't care how many stories he listened to, I don't believe there is a single psychological theory that says you can become a mass murderer from listening to people talk about their problems. Please show me evidence of this psychological theory. I've never heard of it.

As far as Motivation 1, well that's kind of what I was saying. It doesn't make much sense, however, that he would feel angst about killing Muslims in foriegn countries (who are themselves either al qeada terrorists, insurgents, or Taliban), but he has no problem whatsoever gunning down unarmed Americans. His "respect for Muslim life driving him to take American lives" seems like bullshit, to me. I'm going to slice through that with Occam's Razor for now, and just call the f*cker a Muslim terrorist just like the other Muslims who kill American soldiers (or civilians, for that matter).

Motivation 2 seems the least impressive to me. This man was part of the Army elite. He made a 6-figure salary, and we paid for all his schooling. He rose through the ranks and was well rewarded despite not ever fighting in any war. That doesn't really fit the Columbine "teased into killing" scenario you've concocted (and you might want to revise your understanding of Columbine, too--those kids were bloodthirsty remorseless killers and not teased losers, according to newly released journals, etc.). This man wasn't a child. He was an Army major. And his peers weren't high school kids, but U.S. soldiers.
This is akin to a black man crying racism because he lost a job to a white dude, after being late for the 10th time in a month.
Not if the white man in question was known to have said that white people should rise up against blacks.
BTW, it is a sacrifice to die as a suicide/homocide bomber. It is a fairly objective observation to realize its similarity to jumping on a grendade to protect your buddies. Any american that sacrificed himself in such a way against an imperial power that invaded and took over our country would be a freakin' hero. That's not sympathy for their cause, that's objective analysis.
Dude, with all respect, you're nuts. :) Blowing up civilians in a pizza parlor isn't anything like jumping on a grenade to save people. Please reconsider this point.

On a lighter note, place the emphasis on the "-thu-" syllable, and it does roll off the tongue. Shorten it to "Zara," and your fingers will be just fine. Or you could just control-C like I do (that's what copy is for), and you won't have to type it out. Cag, Av, Cybr, HLT, I shorten you guys all the time. Like I said, you'll get used to it. :)
Last edited by Zarathustra on Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Avatar »

Eventually maybe. And no promises. :D
Zarathustra wrote:Dude, with all respect, you're nuts. :) Blowing up civilians in a pizza parlor isn't anything like jumping on a grenade to save people. Please reconsider this point.
It is if the suicide bomber thinks he's saving his own people by doing it. (In other words, it is the same to him.)

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Post by Ki »

Paranoia--you say that suicide rates are high among physicians...this guy didn't commit suicide (I don't understand why he just didn't do that but anyway), do you mean, physicians in the Army or civilian physicians?
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Post by Zarathustra »

Avatar wrote:Eventually maybe. And no promises. :D
Zarathustra wrote:Dude, with all respect, you're nuts. :) Blowing up civilians in a pizza parlor isn't anything like jumping on a grenade to save people. Please reconsider this point.
It is if the suicide bomber thinks he's saving his own people by doing it. (In other words, it is the same to him.)

--A
It doesn't save anyone to blow up innocent men, women, and children. It doesn't matter if the delusional suicide bomber believes this, that doesn't make it a fact. The FACT is that it does actually kills people. That can't be disputed. As for jumping on a grenade, it doesn't take the soldier's belief to make his sacrifice actually save lives. His body does that. These are polar opposite cases, and not at all similar.

In order for this comparison to make any sense at all, you'd have to give equal weight to one man's belief and another man's body. If you can prove that a suicide bomber ever saved a single life, I'd like to see you try. This is the worst apples/oranges comparison I've ever seen.
Ki wrote: Paranoia--you say that suicide rates are high among physicians...this guy didn't commit suicide (I don't understand why he just didn't do that but anyway), do you mean, physicians in the Army or civilian physicians?
Ha! Good point. You might as well say that infidelity to one's spouse is high among physicians. We're not talking about suicide or cheating on your wife. We're talking about walking into a U.S. Army base and killing a dozen soldiers. Is that a common thing among physicians?!?
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Post by Avatar »

Factually, yes, I can see the distinction you're drawing. It's not possible to prove whether or not a suicide bomber ever saved anybody, although it might have happened in some way...we can't unravel causality well enough to find out.

But in terms of what the person believes, there may not be much subjective difference.

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Post by Zarathustra »

Avatar wrote:Factually, yes, I can see the distinction you're drawing. It's not possible to prove whether or not a suicide bomber ever saved anybody, although it might have happened in some way...we can't unravel causality well enough to find out.

But in terms of what the person believes, there may not be much subjective difference.

--A
I see the distinction you're drawing, too, but like I said, there's an entire ontological difference between beliefs and bodies.

But let's ignore that difference for a moment. One man tries to (ostensibly) save lives by killing a bunch of innocent civilians (along with himself). Another man tries to save lives by allowing himself to die, without any intention whatsoever to kill innocent civilians.

So while both men are trying to save lives, only one of them is ALSO trying to kill innocent civilians. So even on the level of belief and intention, it's entirely 180 degrees out of synch.
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Post by Zarathustra »

The Army psychiatrist suspected of being the lone gunman in a horrific massacre at Fort Hood in Texas took a "very calm and measured approach" to carrying out the mass shooting, the commanding general said Friday.

Survivors of the rampage that killed 13 and wounded 30 said the suspect, Major Nidal Malik Hasan, shouted "Allahu Akbar!" — "God is great!" in Arabic — before opening fire, base commander Lt. Gen. Robert Cone said.
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Nah, I bet his religion had nothing to do with it. :roll:

The FBI have his computer. I predict we'll get to the bottom of this soon.
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Post by Cail »

CNN is reporting the same thing.

I am very hesitant to label this as a Muslim terrorist event, however that appears to be a major factor in this attack.

It's a shame that we've become so fearful of offending people that we can't discuss that possibility without being called racist.

This is walking and talking an awful lot like a duck.....
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Post by Harbinger »

It's a fact that many Muslims hate "infidels" and wish to kill them. It's a fact that many Muslims do not hate others and do not wish to kill anyone.

So why did this guy choose to unload on American soldiers rather than American civilians or his local Mosque? I'll tell you-

So he could count coup on his enemies. He's probably a hero somewhere for taking out American soldiers.

There is nothing wrong with suicide. It's a selfish choice, but hey, it's your life. Killing others when you are not in immediate danger (or possibly for revenge) takes a twisted mind. Religion is sometimes used to twist minds and that's a fact.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Cail wrote:CNN is reporting the same thing.

I am very hesitant to label this as a Muslim terrorist event, however that appears to be a major factor in this attack.

It's a shame that we've become so fearful of offending people that we can't discuss that possibility without being called racist.

This is walking and talking an awful lot like a duck.....
No no no, Cail. Hasan is the world's first victim of Pre-post traumatic stress syndrome. It's an entirely new psychological phenomenon, and probably has implications on time travel and a host of unexplored possibilities. We need to investigate every single one of these possibilities and leave the duck speculation to <resisting the lame "quacks" joke> anti-Muslim bigots.
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