Staff of Law = Wotan's Staff

[robo]

After reading the afterword in The Real Story it seems like the Staff of Law is derived from Wotan's Staff. Lots of similarities.

[Bannor]

OK, I'll bite. Who's Wotan?

[robo]

Wotan is Odin (chief Norse God). He's explained by SRD in the afterword to The Real Story (his first Gap book). SRD seems to like Wagner's Ring Cycle (in which Wotan appears). Actually, the staff is supposed to be a spear. Here's a quote from the afterword where SRD is describing the story of Wagner's opera Siegfried:


"Without his spear, of course, Wotan is finished. In fact, he had reason to believe that his spear wouldn't stop the boy. His decision to challenge Siegfried regardless is complex. On the one hand, he knows that if his spear can't stop Siegfried the gods are doomed anyway: They'll never be able to control whatever use is made of the ring. On the other hand, he understands that unless his spear - his rule - is shattered, the world will never be free of the destructive effects of his bargains. He challenges Siegfried in an attempt to simultaneously save and destroy himself."

Also, earlier (from Das Rheingold):

"Hungry for supremacy, Wotan has carved a staff from the World Tree; and into his staff he cuts the bargains and treaties he makes to consolidate his dominance, so that authority becomes part of the natural order."

Doesn't this all sound very familiar?:) The thought processes in the first quote are very similar to things that were going on in TCC even to the point of including a paradox!

[aliantha]

Oh, great. So TCTC is based on the Ring Cycle, too? Sheesh. Have we been looking for parallels in the wrong place? We've been all over Tolkien, and we should've been dissecting Wagner instead!

[Jamie]

I think this has to be the best kept secret about the Thomas Covenant books (in fact I never noticed it until I'd read the epilogue to The Real Story - prelude to The Gap Series which is yet another reworking of Wagner). The Covenant books are an "inversion" of Wagner's Ring. T.C. is the Siegfrid figure - but unlike Siegfrid he is "powered" by guilt (primarily for his rape of Lena) rather than innocence. The High Lord rules through the "earthpower" - but unlike Wotan, his/her influence is benign. Like Wotan's staff it is cut from Ygdrassil, the "World Ash Tree" (here represented as the "One Tree"). The list goes on fovever....

[robo]

Actually, I'd say that TC is powered by unbelief not guilt. Really shrewd observation comparing TC and Siegfried, Jamie! I'll have to start thinking about this...

In a way, the Creator is Wotan who cannot achieve his goals by using a tool - this exact concept is in The Ring. The concept of free will is also very important in both stories as it relates to Creator/Wotan.

[Fist and Faith]

My jaw dropped when I read the topic of this thread. I've amused myself by comparing TCTC to Norse mythology since I first thought that the preternatural winter in TPTP was reminiscent of mythology's Fimbulvetr (great winter), a 3-year winter that precedes Ragnarok. Am I now to understand that the Staff of Law is based on Gungnir (Odin's spear)? OK then, here's all the similarities I can think of right now:

The Staff of Law = Gungnir (I'm not too familiar with Wagner's Ring cycle, so I didn't know that Wotan's staff was carved from Yggdrasil. This is not the case in the mythological sources. I guess the comparison works better with Wagner's mythology.)

Berek, the Lord Fatherer = Odin, father of the gods

Loric's <I>krill</I> = Mjolnir (Thor's hammer)

Loric, enemy of the viles (and wielder of the <I>krill</I>) = Thor, enemy of giants (and wielder of mjolnir)

Lord Foul = Loki

The three ravers = Loki's three evil offspring (Hel - The Fenrir/Fenris Wolf -
Jormungand/Midgard Serpent) that had big parts in Ragnarok, which is basically their version of the Apocolypse. [side note: Loki had at least one other offspring, the 8-legged horse, Sleipnir. (But Loki was the <I>mother</I> of Sleipnir, having been in the form of a mare for a while.). But Sleipnir was not evil. In fact, he was Odin's steed.]

The preternatural winter in TPTP = the Fimbulvetr

The One Tree = Yggdrasill, the world tree

The Bloodguard = the Einherjar -the army of the gods that
is made up of slain warriors. (This one seems more of a stretch to me, but by now, I'm wanting to find similarities )

[[Syl]]

I remember Donaldson in an interview saying something about using mythological archetypes in writing the chronicles, so I always took the parallels for granted, I guess. Comparing the Krill to Mjolnir, tho... that I never realized. Excellent. Maybe if it wouldn't have been for Damelon it would have been more apparent... ah well.

Not entirely surprising, tho. Didn't Tolkien take much of Middle Earth from Norse mythology as well? Also, I could've swore I read in The Encyclopedia of Fantasy and Science Fiction that Donaldson and Tolkien had corresponded, though my recent internet searches have turned up no trace of that.

[Zahir]

Actually, I've always had the impression both Donaldson and Tolkien were drawing on similar archetypes and sources--including Norse mythology and Wagner's <i>Ring</i>.

[Damelon]

I would guess that SRD's borrowing from Norse mythology is rather loose. For instance, I may be wrong, but aren't the Giants the enemies of the Norse gods?

If it is from mythology; can anyone speculate where SRD got the inspiration for the Ur-Viles and the Waynhim?

[Ryzel]

I would guess that SRD's borrowing from Norse mythology is rather loose. For instance, I may be wrong, but aren't the Giants the enemies of the Norse gods?

The giants or norse mythology, more accurately termed jotun, are indeed the enemies of the gods. But as I understand it their size is not the problem but rather the fact that they inhabit Utgard, the outer earth, as opposed to Midgard (The Middle-Earth where the humans live) and Åsgard (The centre of the earth, where the gods (Æsir) live). This places them outside the influence of the norse gods and thus outside the natural order of things.

As for the Ur-viles and others, the only norse reference to 'created' beings are Kvasir, but he is more reminiscent of Vain than of the Ur-viles as a species.

[Fist and Faith]

The Norse gods very much reflect the people who invented them. Yes, the giants were their enemies. But not because they were the good guys and the giants were necessarily more evil. Odin and his brothers slew the first of all beings, the giant Ymir. No reason, they just did it. Then they made the different parts of the world out of the parts of Ymir's body. And the gods, particularly hot-headed Thor, went out looking for trouble with giants as often as trouble came to them.

[Fist and Faith]

Oh! I just made a better connection for the Bloodguard than the Einherjar. Heimdall is the guardian of the gods, and he doesn't sleep! (Thanks for brining up Norse gods again Duchess. )

[Ryzel]

But he get laid a lot more than the Bloodguard seems to.

[Fist and Faith]

He sure did! I'll bet there were tons of Land Lasses eyeing the Bloodguard rather lustily. But those poor saps - "Oh, no! I just couldn't! In what way would that serve the Vow?" And the rejected girl shakes her head and walks away, quoting, "If you gotta ask the question, you ain't never gonna know the answer."

[Fist and Faith]

Speaking of Yggdrasill, I just got back from the Renaissance Faire. I got a Yggdrasill necklace! Heh, I'd never heard of one either. There's a company, Pepi and Company, that has lots of dragon, rune, and other fantasy-type necklaces. And there it was! I wear it in honor of Taiga, Syl, and all other Forestaal. It's on this page:
www.pepiandco.com/htmlversion/dragon.htm

And Syl, they have two different Green Man necklaces too, though I can't find a pic of them on the site.

[Ryzel]

I just learned that I could buy some viking jewelry if I went to visit the Viking ship museum here in Oslo. I guess I will have to go there one of these days and see what they have. (Would you believe that I work only a kilometer from it and have not been there for years and years?)

[[Syl]]

Ah, cool. I've always been tempted to buy this viking earcuff I come across occasionally in magazines and such.

[Fist and Faith]

Ryzel, Ill bet most people who live in New York City haven't been to the Statue of Liberty either. Now I have to go look for a website about the Viking ship museum. Maybe there's pictures of the jewelry.

[Ylva Kresh]

After reading the afterword to TheRealStory I got the feeling of being just a little bit cheated. Are the TC cronicles also heavily based on Niebelungenlied (not only the Gapseries, which was more obvious)? Before a red this afterword I had the idea that it all was a fantastic mix of almost all world religions and cultures - a lot jewish, arabian and indian (from india i mean, I hope you follow my horrible english) together with some new mythology. Norse mythology is, acording to me, a bit suspicious. Not the old myths themselves, but when todays people start rebuilding this religion it gets a bit wierd. It is no doubt, a in many ways a horrible and destructive religion. The hammer of Thor (mjölner), is sometimes used by scandinavian skinheads as "their" symbol. Very anoying, frightening and also making it "illegal" for us other people to wear it. Of course one should try to take back such symbols from these skinheads - but it is easily said, hard to do.

Talking of the afterword of TRS: does anyone know what scene can be described as one of the strongest in TPTP??? Just interested.

Coming up next: interesting meanings of SRD-made names in swedish...