THOOLAH?

[peter]

THOOLAH? (The Official Order Of Linden Avery Haters in case you didn't know). My question is Why? What is so bad about Linden - Is it a joke - could you really read (and be happy about) a book where you hate the central charachter from whose point of view the story is told. What is this all about - is she hated just for the crime of not being Thomas Covenant, or what.

[rdhopeca]

uh oh...

[dlbpharmd]

HLT, would you like the honor of responding, or shall I?

[jackgiantkiller]

how do u join? 'if u need to ask u dont need to know, if you need to know u dont need to ask'

[Vanja the Gravelingas]

What is this all about - is she hated just for the crime of not being Thomas Covenant, or what.

There are several reasons,but that's probably the main one. The second reason would be that she was,let's face it,pretty useless in the Second Chronicles. But she's not useless because she's trying to avoid responsibility - unlike TC,she doesn't even have to help save the Land,she doesn't have to do a damn thing. The Land itself simply isn't her concern,the only thing she was supposed to worry about was how she's going to return to the "real" world. I suppose she was dragged around with TC because SRD wanted her to understand the Land and its "rules",so to speak,and so that she would be prepared for the Last Chronicles.
The third reason is related to the second,and it's about the Last Chrons.

Spoiler

Linden isn't trying to save the Land,only Jeremiah. SRD is trying to get us to think that she cares about the Land,almost in the way the Lords did,but she doesn't. As far as I've understood,she's making an attempt at saving the Land only because it could help her find Jeremiah,otherwise she wouldn't have been willing to risk her life.

Back to the top,then. After all of this,I also blame her for surviving the Second Chrons. TC was the one who did everything within his limits and he died,while Linden was useless,yet she survived.
This might answer your question. If it doesn't,I hope High Lord Tolkien posts here,as he is what you could call a true Linden hater

[Black Asgard]

The second reason would be that she was,let's face it,pretty useless in the Second Chronicles.

If I recall, she provides a balancing act for Covenant that was very important, even if she stung him in the ass and had to possess him.[/quote]

But she's not useless because she's trying to avoid responsibility - unlike TC,she doesn't even have to help save the Land,she doesn't have to do a damn thing.

I agree with that, and she seems to cover her eyes with the blank stare of comatose shock than really physically help.

The Land itself simply isn't her concern,the only thing she was supposed to worry about was how she's going to return to the "real" world. I suppose she was dragged around with TC because SRD wanted her to understand the Land and its "rules",so to speak,and so that she would be prepared for the Last Chronicles.

Covenant worries all the way up until the second half of TPTP about how he's going to get out (in his case, the add the extension of "this time.")

Spoiler

The third reason is related to the second,and it's about the Last Chronicles. Linden isn't trying to save the Land,only Jeremiah. SRD is trying to get us to think that she cares about the Land,almost in the way the Lords did,but she doesn't. As far as I've understood,she's making an attempt at saving the Land only because it could help her find Jeremiah,otherwise she wouldn't have been willing to risk her life.
Back to the top,then.

Spoiler

But Linden isn't a hero, she's a mother who already experienced Foul's nightmare once, and lost the man that she loved to him, whether or not that had really loved one another before that. Wasn't that traumatic enough? I don't blame her for having a single-minded mission then; and I think that, on some level, she does care for the Land, in that to her, the Land is Covenant, and Covenant the Land.

After all of this,I also blame her for surviving the Second Chronicles. TC was the one who did everything within his limits and he died,while Linden was useless,yet she survived.

Covenant was doomed to die from the beginning: he got a knife put into his chest, for Kevin's sake. Linden didn't. She basically tripped and fell into the Land. And the Chronicles are about Covenant; thus far, Linden has only been a vehicle. I don't think she can be any more than that.



I've never understood the TOOLAH people. Other readers unaffiliated with KW also despise her. I don't particularly like her, and all of your arguments are entirely valid, but I also think they are in themselves justifications for her existence. And "absence makes the heart grow fonder". Just wait till Covenant comes back.

My twenty-nine cents.

[Vanja the Gravelingas]

I've never understood the TOOLAH people.

Is it too late to mention that I'm actually not a THOOLAH member?
I don't hate Linden,but I understand the people who do - except for the fact that they probably have better arguments.

And "absence makes the heart grow fonder".

True. I always thought of Covenant as an ass (a good-natured ass,though ),but I never really imagined what the Chronicles would be like without him. Never thought I'd have to.

[Menolly]

OPAL! OPAL!! OPAL!!!

[High Lord Tolkien]

THOOLAH!

It all began here:

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... 471#295471

Have fun (and if you take it too seriously then you've missed the point).

[peter]

OPAL! OPAL!! OPAL!!!

pssst....(he whispered, afraid of displaying his already obvious ignorance)...whats OPAL?

[peter]

Have fun (and if you take it too seriously then you've missed the point).

I'll give it a whirl HLT (and I always figured it was a bit toung in cheek )

[Menolly]

OPAL! OPAL!! OPAL!!!

pssst....(he whispered, afraid of displaying his already obvious ignorance)...whats OPAL?

Opinion Pending about Linden

...for us fence straddlers until she proves herself for or against The Land.

At least it is neither THOOLAH nor Linden's Army (LA)

[Wheelwash Whitecap]

First, Let me say that I think the TCOTC are great. I love they way SRD writes. But....Linden does whine and snivel a tremendous amount with a lack of action.

Somewhere in another thread about this....someone accused Linden as being the Queen of Inaction while Thomas Covenant would jump into it with everything he had with lightening bolts coming out of his ass killing everything in sight. A sentiment I totally agree with and a mental picture that makes me Laugh.

TC was a great main character, Linden is a sidekick. It is hard for a reader to switch her from the sidekick role into the main character role.

Thanks

(Proud member of Thoolah)

[Wheelwash Whitecap Mate]

Let me tell you that I am not, as of yet, a member of THOOLAH, as I have an opinion that is forming. Since I am in the middle of Runes of Earth, I might even begin to become a member of OPAL.

What is so bad about Linden - Is it a joke - could you really read (and be happy about) a book where you hate the central charachter

In my opinion what is bad about Linden is that she whines throughout the two books that I have read thus far. She, as a nurse or doctor or whatever, should automatically kick into fight or flight syndrome. She would not be sitting there wondering what to do. Her senses would automatically take over and she would respond to physical hurt without even thinking. I mean that is what she was trained to do. She is not very effective.

Lastly, putting her as a main character, does not change the story line sufficently to warrant not reading the remainder of the series. I have read 1000's of books and there have been many that I did not like the main character in them, but the story has sustained the book. Hoping TC will come back in this book lol.

Holding out on my association choice (THOOLAH or LA),

WWWCM

[peter]

...for us fence straddlers until she proves herself for or against The Land.

But she's already healed the Land at the end of WGW. What more can she do!

[peter]

...someone accused Linden as being the Queen of Inaction while Thomas Covenant would jump into it with everything he had with lightening bolts coming out of his ass killing everything in sight. A sentiment I totally agree with and a mental picture that makes me Laugh.

This is not how I remember TC from the first series at all!....

[peter]

She, as a nurse or doctor or whatever, should automatically kick into fight or flight syndrome. She would not be sitting there wondering what to do. Her senses would automatically take over and she would respond to physical hurt without even thinking.

....and is this not exactly what she does!

[Wheelwash Whitecap]

...someone accused Linden as being the Queen of Inaction while Thomas Covenant would jump into it with everything he had with lightening bolts coming out of his ass killing everything in sight. A sentiment I totally agree with and a mental picture that makes me Laugh.

This is not how I remember TC from the first series at all!....

Peter,

He was not initially like this, but as he got drawn more and more into the land he became like this. When you look at his actions compared to how Linden reacts.

By the way I was just quoting from the Thoolah Post Kevinswatch (Jay) sent out in jest. See earlier posts.

No more shall we hide our annoyance with the great Queen of Inaction, and her many forsaken qualities. The Chosen is eternally whiney and is forever complainey. She tricks us with pages and pages of endless thought, misjudgment, and a fear of taking action. We require a lead character who isn't afraid to shoot fireballs out of their ass and completely annihilate and destroy every living thing within a thirty mile radius in order to accomplish their goal, whatever it may or may not be. We require a lead character who leaps before they look, and who acts immediately in every situation, without even taking a nanosecond to consider the possibilities.

thanks

WWWC

[Wheelwash Whitecap Mate]

....and is this not exactly what she does!

Your question of whether she does that or not, at least I am hoping it is a question and not a statement, is not correct. There are several instances when she hems and haws around before she actually takes action or whines about what has to be done before actually doing it.

Chapter 2 WGW: "What about you?" he asked her. ..."What're you going to do?" stated Covenant. At the door, she looked back at him, and her eyes were openly full of tears, "I'm going to wait".

Another specific instance is when Covenant is catatonic and Linden finally, after waiting for several chapters in the book, went into him and broke the hold that was placed on him by the Elohim to bring him back. Or when he needed healing and she waited to do that. Linden has taken her time healing several characters or taking action throughout the book continually. So like the previous posts I can only call her action inaction. She has taken her time doing what needs to be done throughout both of the books that I have read thus far.

I hate that I had to argue this as I was hoping to like the character of Linden and was on the fence about her before now, but am leaning towards THOOLAH myself now. I am going to go back to reading now, but hope that we all can just enjoy the books as they are.

Fun to read,

WWWCM

[BellTelephoneCompany]

THOOLAH is one of the reasons I signed up, even though I actually like Linden, and can understand her occassional indecisiveness (even when it leads to harm befalling others), and even when she does something reprehensible like to Cail, because... well, because it's exactly what Covenant was like all the way through the first Chrons.

I mean, honestly, that's three big books of a guy hemming and hawing and letting others fight his battles before he finally accepts the reality of his reality - and that's what makes it great!

If he had merely been a wizard firing lightning bolts, and Linden had been an omnicompetent Special Forces Ninja like every single charcter in LOST, I never would've liked the books at all.

In a way, complaints about Linden's inactivity, in a series where TC spends half the time unconcious, is like moaning about Hamlet's lack of action. "Why didn't he just kill that dude? I totally woulda!"

But the THOOLAH blog and many other posts here showed me that this is a community of funny and opinionated folk who can take a joke, even about their most beloved books - so I wanted to join in.