In case we haven't beaten the abortion horse to death yet

[Rawedge Rim]

www.komonews.com/news/local/88971742.html

Story Published: Mar 23, 2010 at 5:33 PM PDT
Story Updated: Mar 24, 2010 at 8:15 AM PDT

Mother furious after in-school clinic sets up teen's abortion

Comments (811)SEATTLE -- The mother of a Ballard High School student is fuming after the health center on campus helped facilitate her daughter's abortion during school hours.

The mother, whom KOMO News has chosen to identify only as "Jill," says the clinic kept the information "confidential."

When she signed a consent form, Jill figured it meant her 15 year old could go to the Ballard Teen Health Center located inside the high school for an earache, a sports physical, even birth control, but not for help terminating a pregnancy.

"She took a pregnancy test at school at the teen health center," she said. "Nowhere in this paperwork does it mention abortion or facilitating abortion."

Jill says her daughter, a pro-life advocate, was given a pass, put in a taxi and sent off to have an abortion during school hours all without her family knowing.

"We had no idea this was being facilitated on campus," said Jill. "They just told her that if she concealed it from her family, that it would be free of charge and no financial responsibility."

The Seattle School District says it doesn't run the health clinics at high schools. Swedish Medical Center runs the clinic at Ballard High and protects the students' privacy.

T.J. Cosgrove of the King County Health Department, which administers the school-based programs for the health department, says it's always best if parents are involved in their children's health care, but don't always have a say.

"At any age in the state of Washington, an individual can consent to a termination of pregnancy," he said.

But Jill says she not only didn't have a say in her daughter's abortion, but also didn't know about it.

"Makes me feel like my rights were completely stripped away."

[Tjol]

The farthest I personally will compromise on abortion is to keep it legal, but with the following conditions:

(a) no third trimester killings, as it certianly involves the infliction of pain, and it's utterly unnecessary that it should take any woman over 168 days to realise she wants an abortion.

(b) parents shall be notified prior to providing an abortion for an underage girl, shall be given an opportunity to speak with her prior to the procedure, and shall be present to observe that the abortionist does their work professionally.

If safety really requires that the parents and the daughter be on two sides of glass through a telephone, so be it. Likewise with their witnessing the procedure to make sure that the abortionist doesn't endanger their daughter's life.

[Avatar]

I'm torn on this one. I pretty much agree with Tjol's first point.

The second, I'm gonna say should be up to the patient.

On the one hand, I don't have a problem with the school facilitating it. Could be a big help to people. On the other, I'm not sure whether the parents actually have any rights in the matter. The rights, and the choice, should probably belong to the person having the abortion.

--A

[finn]

The farthest I personally will compromise on abortion is to keep it legal, but with the following conditions:

(a) no third trimester killings, as it certianly involves the infliction of pain, and it's utterly unnecessary that it should take any woman over 168 days to realise she wants an abortion.

(b) parents shall be notified prior to providing an abortion for an underage girl, shall be given an opportunity to speak with her prior to the procedure, and shall be present to observe that the abortionist does their work professionally.

If safety really requires that the parents and the daughter be on two sides of glass through a telephone, so be it. Likewise with their witnessing the procedure to make sure that the abortionist doesn't endanger their daughter's life.

I think I agree with your point a) with the exception (an already existing proviso), of maintaing the woman's health. However I do think that this provision is open to and probably is, abused: that should be dealt with.

Your second point tho' falls into the same category as contraception in that, young sexually active people will look to alternatives if parental consent is required, for contraception and terminations. Contraception availability and advice without parental notification was frowned on by many but common sense prevailed. The same thing will go with abortions, 14 or 15 year old girls will seek alternatives to the "Teen Health Centres" if they are required to tell parents. This opens a whole swathe of potential disasters whilst not necessarily doing anything to change the outcomes.

For me prevention is highly preferable and whilst contraception is the best method, better parenting might also help too. Not sure about the observation bit tho'......what is the rationale here?

[Cail]

I'll say it again, a minor child can't get their ears pierced without parental consent. There's no way a serious medical procedure like an abortion should be done without parental consent.

[Avatar]

By those standards, absolutely. But maybe what it really means is that, to be consistent, we should allow people to get their ears pierced without parental consent.

(You don't need it here...but you do for a tattoo, if you're under 18.)

--A

[Tjol]

The farthest I personally will compromise on abortion is to keep it legal, but with the following conditions:

(a) no third trimester killings, as it certianly involves the infliction of pain, and it's utterly unnecessary that it should take any woman over 168 days to realise she wants an abortion.

(b) parents shall be notified prior to providing an abortion for an underage girl, shall be given an opportunity to speak with her prior to the procedure, and shall be present to observe that the abortionist does their work professionally.

If safety really requires that the parents and the daughter be on two sides of glass through a telephone, so be it. Likewise with their witnessing the procedure to make sure that the abortionist doesn't endanger their daughter's life.

I think I agree with your point a) with the exception (an already existing proviso), of maintaing the woman's health. However I do think that this provision is open to and probably is, abused: that should be dealt with.

Your second point tho' falls into the same category as contraception in that, young sexually active people will look to alternatives if parental consent is required, for contraception and terminations. Contraception availability and advice without parental notification was frowned on by many but common sense prevailed. The same thing will go with abortions, 14 or 15 year old girls will seek alternatives to the "Teen Health Centres" if they are required to tell parents. This opens a whole swathe of potential disasters whilst not necessarily doing anything to change the outcomes.

For me prevention is highly preferable and whilst contraception is the best method, better parenting might also help too. Not sure about the observation bit tho'......what is the rationale here?

It would seem that we should bring swift justice on any center trying to conduct any kind of medical procedure on a person who is under the age of majority, without their parent's knowledge. I can concede that parental approval shouldn't be required, but their knowledge should be allowed, and they should be allowed to consult their children.

General legal practice is that a parent has to be present for just about any other business or medical arrangement with a person under the age of majority. Tattoos, tans, cosmetic surgery, business contracts; if you're under 18, your parents not only need to be notified, but they need to approve. Parents should at least have knowledge, and the ability to protect their children.

Black market clinics that might show up, would only show up for want of enforcement. And I'm pretty sure there are enough private citizens to report such clinics wherever they attempt to show up.

The observation is more specifically for black market clinics you're referring to. An adult woman, if she gets her abortion done at a less than stellar clinic, carries the responsability for the consequence of an ill performed procedure. For a child or teenager, the parents are responsible for her medical care, and being informed at whether it's done safely, sanitarily, professionally, etc. We can all imagine that abortionists are in it for the patients and that all are extremely proficient in their work, but truth is many are in it for the money, not all of them are fully competent in their work, and there is no doubt a minority who take advantage of a teenager if adequate supervision is not present. Especially the type of black market clinic you're talking about. The presence of the parents provides the most well meaning supervision of the abortionist's work, that their daughter doesn't suffer later complications as a consequence of a poorly done abortion. You can't expect an underaged child or teenager to either know how the procedure should be correctly done or to know what is a normal and not normal part of the process.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Abortion is probably the only issue left for me where either side can change my opinion if I listen to it.
Give me ten minutes with a right to chooser and I'm agreeing with them.
I can turn from that person, start up a conversation with a right to lifer and I'm 100% on that side.
It's unreal.

[Tjol]

HLT- It's a complicated issue, there are a lot of different components involved with the issue. It's somewhat like the second ammendment; sure people should all have means to self defense, but how big an an arsenal should they have?

With abortion, there is the abortions themselves, which I've come to be semi-pro-choice on (as far as government is involved), but there are certian conditions that I think have to be met on the grounds of public safety(as far as government is involved). Even if one isn't convinced that a fetus is human life, or at least not one that has acquired inalienable rights, one still has to make sure that abortions are performed professionally and safely for the sake of the woman receiving the abortion. I knew a girl a while back who'd been raped somewhere in the middle of some heavy drug addiction as a teenager. She got the abortion, but also had a lot of her reproductive system damaged in the process. I highly doubt that she's the only one who experienced such a consequence.

[Cail]

Ask a "my body my choice" person if they believe that all drugs should be legal. If they answer "no", then tell them to pack sand.

[Ki]

I don't even like the idea of the child being taken off campus in a taxi without parental consent, much less a medical procedure! In my opinion, this isn't even about abortion. It's about a child undergoing an invasive, elective medical procedure without parental consent or knowledge. What if the procedure had been done improperly and later that evening this child started bleeding uncontrollably and then this parent wouldn't even know what was happening to her daughter? I can't even provide my child with Ibuprofen at school without my written permission and a doctor's note. Geez.

[finn]

Hey Tjol, thanks for the response. I guess I am bit like HLT on this except I tend to disagree with whoever I'm speaking with after a few minutes!

As for the clinics, I think it likely that if required to seek parental consent or even parental notification, the girls will seek out alternatives and be at far greater risk of falling foul of unprofessional and unskilled services with a greater liklihood of things going wrong like that you've illustrated.

I think part of this is the arcane attitude some Americans have to sex. Nudity and bad language is taboo and the whole church thing would have young people believe they go straight to hell if they even think what are quite natural thoughts and impulses and will be on a par with the devils own spawn should they dare to act upon them. This straight-laced denial leaves kids feeling alone and on the outside should they either ignore or give in and fall victim to the consequences........and that's not going into those whose parents will bawl them out, punish them, ostracise them or even beat them.

These clinics bring up the same sort of questions that the clean needle stations did with intravenous drug use. On the one hand people were against them and argued they encouraged drug use, but others recognized the potential for reducing the spread of such things as HIV/Hepatitus. If a young ie underaged, pregnant girl wants to get an abortion she'll likely do it. If she wants to do this without her parents and possibly the boyfriend or anyone else knowing, she'll do it. Given that it'll happen, is is not better to have it done in a manner that is safe?

[finn]

As a seperate comment on the article, in re-reading it a number of things become evident which are somewhat confusing and (IMO) question the credibility of it.

The girl is supposedly (according to her mother) a pro-life advocate but she doesn't tell her mother and agrees to a termination.

I'm willing to bet there are a thousand things "not in the paperwork"

The mother is saying she feels like HER rights have been stripped away.

I think this is an example of the different perspectives the parties have. Quite clearly the girl has not told her mother and has decided upon a termination and then acted upon that decision. The mother finds out and is blaming everyone else for the lack of trust that is evidenced by the fact that her daughter doesn't talk to her about her condition. THis sounds a lot like a control issue for the mother.

This is exactly why this facility is in place, the kids do not always feel able to involve their parents.

[Avatar]

What if the procedure had been done improperly and later that evening this child started bleeding uncontrollably and then this parent wouldn't even know what was happening to her daughter?

Well, I'd have to say that that was the child's problem, for not involving them. And it would then be up to her do admit it, or suffer the consequences.

This is exactly why this facility is in place, the kids do not always feel able to involve their parents.

Pretty much agree. And I dunno about there, but here schools have the right to act in loco parentis where necessary. So it could be seen as part of that mandate. (Not that schools here give that kind of service.)

--A

[Tjol]

Hey Tjol, thanks for the response. I guess I am bit like HLT on this except I tend to disagree with whoever I'm speaking with after a few minutes!

I've played devil's advocate with myself on the issue, but over time certian objections stop holding as much weight as they did and the scales tip a little.

As for the clinics, I think it likely that if required to seek parental consent or even parental notification, the girls will seek out alternatives and be at far greater risk of falling foul of unprofessional and unskilled services with a greater liklihood of things going wrong like that you've illustrated.

Like I said though, only for not wanting to enforce laws requiring that abortions performed on teenagers shall be performed only in the presence of the child's parents. And it wouldn't require expansion of police forces, there are plenty of organisations that would volunteer to check for unprofessional practices.

I think part of this is the arcane attitude some Americans have to sex.

That is in the end a poor presumption to make. It's not about the sex, it's about the life involved. I don't think it's anymore arcane than the belief that a human being needs to breathe air, drink water and eat food to live. By which I mean to say, a long held belief is not inherently a false belief, anymore than a new belief is inherently correct. I could just as easily suggest that the cavalier attitude some western cultures have towards abortion probably stems from their general tendency towards nihilism and not valuing human life so much as animal life...but such a generalisation isn't necessarily anymore accurate than your observation.

[Avatar]

I think western culture places a very high value on human life. Moreso than in places where abortion is not tolerated (in general).

--A

[Tjol]

I think western culture places a very high value on human life. Moreso than in places where abortion is not tolerated (in general).

--A

How so? Do you share the same misconception about the US's attitude towards abortion? Do you really think that people want to stop abortion because they think it will de-sexualise the culture?

Try a comparing and contrasting with those cultures that are even more reactionary about sexuality such as those that occur in parts of the Middle East... more abortion or less abortion? Heck they kill the women they rape even if their isn't a child conceived.

It goes to show I think that concern about abortion in the US isn't about sex, it's about the perception of the preciousness of life and the regret for wasting it. You can't claim to place a high value on human life while at the same time having a cavlier regard for abortion.

Now if you want to say that western culture places a high value on quality of life... you have a better case. But you can't compare a baby with a fingernail or a blob in a petri dish and say that you hold it in high regard... well not unless you've saved every fingernail clipping you've ever made.

(All that being said, I think moral issues should be debated amongst the people, and not enforced by the government. Government sucks at enforcing morality, the best government can do is to compromise between several moralities and find the common denominators.)

[lucimay]

I don't even like the idea of the child being taken off campus in a taxi without parental consent, much less a medical procedure! In my opinion, this isn't even about abortion. It's about a child undergoing an invasive, elective medical procedure without parental consent or knowledge. What if the procedure had been done improperly and later that evening this child started bleeding uncontrollably and then this parent wouldn't even know what was happening to her daughter? I can't even provide my child with Ibuprofen at school without my written permission and a doctor's note. Geez.

exactly. parental consent for minors. parental notification for minors.
legally, a minor is below the age of 18. period. we've all decided that
and have been living this way for decades. we've all agreed to it.
so how can a 15 year old go get an abortion without parental consent?

and cail, i don't get your thing about my body my choice and all drugs being legal. what did you mean? 'splain your analogy please. (sorry, it's probably obvious but i don't get you)

[Avatar]

I don't think it's about trying to de-sexualise the country, I think it's probably a puritanical / religious hold-over from the idea that human life is owned by god.

Try a comparing and contrasting with those cultures that are even more reactionary about sexuality such as those that occur in parts of the Middle East... more abortion or less abortion? Heck they kill the women they rape even if their isn't a child conceived.

That's exactly my point. Less regard for life, but less abortion. Abortion is illegal in most developing countries. Yet those same countries place less value on human life. There, it's probably a control/freedom issue, not a "life" issue.

--A

[Tjol]

I don't think it's about trying to de-sexualise the country, I think it's probably a puritanical / religious hold-over from the idea that human life is owned by god.

Try a comparing and contrasting with those cultures that are even more reactionary about sexuality such as those that occur in parts of the Middle East... more abortion or less abortion? Heck they kill the women they rape even if their isn't a child conceived.

That's exactly my point. Less regard for life, but less abortion. Abortion is illegal in most developing countries. Yet those same countries place less value on human life. There, it's probably a control/freedom issue, not a "life" issue.

--A

The middle east has a higher occurance of abortion than the US, and they're certianly way more reactionary in terms of religious beliefs. They have less regard for life and more abortions. In the middle east, it is tied directly to sexual 'shame' and they don't force the children to term, they kill the woman who might conceive.

In western society it can at least be said that some abortions are had for quality of life. That can't be said in the middle east where honor killings tell you that sexual 'shame' is a bigger driving force than quality of life.

Am I standing on any poor premises?