Politics in Fantasy & Science Fiction

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Post by Vraith »

All_Day_SCI-fi wrote: Gap Disease ???

That affects people differently and causes the HERO to try to self destruct the ship.

This is SCIENCE fiction?

More like science FICTION. LOL
That doesn't necessarily follow. Lots of actual illnesses affect different people differently. Particularly in a case like this: brain tumors, for example have an enormous possible array of symptoms. [although SRD himself would probably agree his focus is on the fiction part].
So techno-politics is something to ba addressed in serious science fiction but escapist sci-fi may hardly be any different from fantasy, but then what is there to discuss about it?

psik
Well...I'd say either way, there's still story, character, plot, conflict, language, ideas...all kinds of stuff.
It's obvious your taste/interest is for the hard stuff, and there's nothing wrong or dumb about that [one of my favorite short stories is as hard as they come "The Cold Equations"] but I have to say there is some reason even the purest write fiction instead of only journal articles and speculative essays.
Sure, real science, real technology affects people, and great stories can come out of using an "as close to real or possible as can be done" basis.
BUT great work can be done on the idea "how science/tech affects people" while using utterly impossible science/tech. [or even 'magic'].
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Post by Avatar »

Don't you hate getting the last post on the preceding page? :lol:

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Post by Vraith »

Avatar wrote:Don't you hate getting the last post on the preceding page? :lol:

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heh...I hate more having somebody post pretty much the same thing you're saying yourself while you are typing your response.... :lol:
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Post by All_Day_SCI-fi »

Vraith wrote:That doesn't necessarily follow. Lots of actual illnesses affect different people differently. Particularly in a case like this: brain tumors, for example have an enormous possible array of symptoms. [although SRD himself would probably agree his focus is on the fiction part].
Admittedly any mind altering disease can have strange effects but the self destruct of a ship is not going to be something designed to be easily or accidentally initiated. So this DISEASE would have to leave a person very functional and able to understand what is happening and yet deliberately do what they normally would not. And I would presume produce its effects in a very short time not weeks or months.
Well...I'd say either way, there's still story, character, plot, conflict, language, ideas...all kinds of stuff.
It's obvious your taste/interest is for the hard stuff, and there's nothing wrong or dumb about that [one of my favorite short stories is as hard as they come "The Cold Equations"] but I have to say there is some reason even the purest write fiction instead of only journal articles and speculative essays.
Sure, real science, real technology affects people, and great stories can come out of using an "as close to real or possible as can be done" basis.
BUT great work can be done on the idea "how science/tech affects people" while using utterly impossible science/tech. [or even 'magic'].
Yes The Cold Equations was a very interesting and possibly disturbing story. I found somone that criticized it on rather silly grounds I thought.

home.tiac.net/~cri_d/cri/1999/coldeq.html

Let's accept that every work of fiction is CONTRIVED. The more subtle the contrivance the better the story tends to be. I admit that with that story I found it EXTREMELY odd that a ship can be so small that they can't find 150 pounds to jettison and yet at the same time be big enough for someone to stow away aboard.

Some people say that the point of the story is that space isn't for the stupid. I don't think that is really it. The critic I linked to made a big deal about the bureaucracy. Though true I don't think that is what is important.

The point is that Reality/Physics does not care and is incapable of caring. We have to understand it and deal with it or deal with the consequences of ignorance. Like this global warming business. If the politicians and the majority of the public can't understand physics REALITY DOES NOT CARE. It doesn't care about Democracy or Justice or the existence of the human race.

It doesn't care if we enjoy our science fiction books either. :lol: :lol:

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Post by Vraith »

All_Day_SCI-fi wrote: The point is that Reality/Physics does not care and is incapable of caring. We have to understand it and deal with it or deal with the consequences of ignorance. Like this global warming business. If the politicians and the majority of the public can't understand physics REALITY DOES NOT CARE. It doesn't care about Democracy or Justice or the existence of the human race.

It doesn't care if we enjoy our science fiction books either. :lol: :lol:

ADSF
On this, we agree utterly...that was the point of the story, people care, the universe doesn't.
[the criticism of other things to jettison is wrong...the point wasn't that other stuff couldn't [logically] be jettisoned, but that getting rid of that stuff would kill more people than getting rid of the stow-away...I never thought size was the issue: it was balance of mass and the energy required to move it]. You are absolutely right on the other, too: the physical universe is incapable of caring if GW exists, doesn't exist, or any effect from dealing or not dealing with it. [and surely doesn't care about our stories :lol: ]
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Post by All_Day_SCI-fi »

the criticism of other things to jettison is wrong...the point wasn't that other stuff couldn't [logically] be jettisoned, but that getting rid of that stuff would kill more people than getting rid of the stow-away.
I meant that a ship big enough for a person to hide in should have had enough surplus weight to be thrown away. Even if they had to unscrew some unnecessary panels, But that is why I say the story was contrived. The situation had to be created to present the problem to get across its point.

Does science "suck the fun out"?

Watch the 1st 3 minutes of the best SG-1 episode.

www.hulu.com/watch/73467/stargate-sg-1-a-hundred-days

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Post by Vraith »

That was a great episode...SG1 always made me laugh because of the unpredictable mix of "this is theoretically possible" and "are you f-ing kidding me."
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Post by All_Day_SCI-fi »

Vraith wrote:That was a great episode...SG1 always made me laugh because of the unpredictable mix of "this is theoretically possible" and "are you f-ing kidding me."
The "FLAW" in that episode was T'ilk going through and digging to the surface. That added a lot of drama. But they have fired missiles through the stargate before. They already had the equipment for it. They would probably need a lower powered shaped charge contact triggered warhead, but if Sam could build a particle beam why would that be a problem?

Aw, I just sucked the fun out. LOL

But they weren't running around shooting evil aliens and never getting hit as usual. This was a more interesting story than most. But those stargates must be really tough. Survive a direct hit from a meteor and keep on tickin'. Must be made by Timex.

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Post by I'm Murrin »

It's Teal'c. Anyhoo, I wouldn't expect much rigourous real-world science from Stargate, heh. They make it work within their established universe, that's about all that's needed.
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Post by All_Day_SCI-fi »

Murrin wrote:It's Teal'c. Anyhoo, I wouldn't expect much rigourous real-world science from Stargate, heh. They make it work within their established universe, that's about all that's needed.
What I said does not have anything to do with RIGOROUS SCIENCE!!!

They have fired missiles through the stargate in other episodes. They already have the equipment in place. Just a matter of choosing the type of warhead.

What they did was TACTICALLY STUPID! But SO DRAMATIC!

And then there is the matter of the EXPENSIVE remote vehicles they send through. They lost two in that episode. They should have a device smaller than a basketball with cameras pointed in all directions and as many sensors as will fit and throw it through the gate first. It would cost tens of thousands less and be retrievable if it survived.

This is just a matter of putting THOUGHT into science fiction. Lack of thought is lack of realism.

Thought "sucks the fun out" though. The opening statements are the curious thing about that episode however. It addresses the psychology of varying sci-fi fans. It is a commentary on lots of "so called" science fiction.

Mr Spock was such a BORE. :lol: :lol:

But in 1966 there weren't HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of computers on the planet.

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Post by Zarathustra »

[Slowly making my way through a very good thread . . . ]
aliantha wrote:I agree that some stories can use political topics to the point where they cross the line into polemics. That should never be a substitute for a good story.
Excellent point. I think it was Vraith who expanded on this by saying the politics should serve the story, rather than the other way around.

A story as an excuse for polemics is just superficial propaganda. It's not about exploring issues and provoking thought, but rather preaching and reader manipulation.

I think that stories should strive for universality, for illuminating the "truths" that are common to all people, in all times . . . or (as the case with s.f.) how time reveals universal truths that have lain dormant in our Being, in our consciousness, waiting for the right technological context to reveal their need for elucidation. The problem of identity, for instance, can be contemplated anew with the mind experiment of a Star Trek transporter, just like the nature of consciousness and AI has been explored with the "story" of the Turing Test.

For this reason--the necessity of universality in our stories--I think that subtexts of politics are particularly susceptible to being merely topical and one-sided. Politics don't have to be this way. There are general themes that run through our entire history of political power. One has to expand one's own perspective before attempting to do this right.
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Post by Vraith »

Zarathustra wrote: I think that stories should strive for universality, for illuminating the "truths" that are common to all people, in all times . . . or (as the case with s.f.) how time reveals universal truths that have lain dormant in our Being, in our consciousness, waiting for the right technological context to reveal their need for elucidation. The problem of identity, for instance, can be contemplated anew with the mind experiment of a Star Trek transporter, just like the nature of consciousness and AI has been explored with the "story" of the Turing Test.
Important issue. And this is one of the potential strengths of the "hard stuff" A very small, very specific fact leading to a very "human" tale.
For this reason--the necessity of universality in our stories--I think that subtexts of politics are particularly susceptible to being merely topical and one-sided. Politics doesn't have to be this way. There are general themes that run through our entire history of political power. One has to expand one's own perspective before attempting to do this right.
Absolutely. It is extraordinarily difficult to avoid trope-ing, cliche-ing, stereotyping the political.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Post by All_Day_SCI-fi »

Zarathustra wrote:Excellent point. I think it was Vraith who expanded on this by saying the politics should serve the story, rather than the other way around.

A story as an excuse for polemics is just superficial propaganda. It's not about exploring issues and provoking thought, but rather preaching and reader manipulation.
Is it possible to make a story without some kind of "politics" in the broadest sense of the term.

The characters are functioning within some culture? Are there good guys and bad guys? Isn't the author making some kind of "propaganda statement" with the personalities of characters.

I always thought Mr. Spock was an Uncle Tom Tom alien. But is that what Gene Roddenberry thought? :lol: :lol:

Mack Reynolds is one of the most blatantly political sci-fi writers I know. But he is also more interesting than people that produce shallow entertainment like Andre Norton.

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Post by Holsety »


What I said does not have anything to do with RIGOROUS SCIENCE!!!

They have fired missiles through the stargate in other episodes. They already have the equipment in place. Just a matter of choosing the type of warhead.

What they did was TACTICALLY STUPID! But SO DRAMATIC!

And then there is the matter of the EXPENSIVE remote vehicles they send through. They lost two in that episode. They should have a device smaller than a basketball with cameras pointed in all directions and as many sensors as will fit and throw it through the gate first. It would cost tens of thousands less and be retrievable if it survived.

This is just a matter of putting THOUGHT into science fiction. Lack of thought is lack of realism.
Really? Are you saying that people don't sometimes lack thought? That it's unrealistic for people to do things that don't seem entirely thought through?

These guys made a mistake. Why is that unrealistic?

Actually, I suspect that in this instance you've already answered my question:
They have fired missiles through the stargate in other episodes.
I haven't watched the full episode and frankly don't feel like doing so, I'm completely taking it for granted that they really were making a mistake. (i.e. there's no extraneous circumstances which made their decision a better choice or at least one with some positive trade-off).

However, I can't help but ask, is it possible that (since tv episodes are often done by different writers) there was a different writer who didn't pay as much attention to the rest of the episodes in the series?

Anyway, it only sucks out the realism when compared to other SG episodes. Take the episode on its own and it works fine, right? Considering that you yourself said
But they weren't running around shooting evil aliens and never getting hit as usual. This was a more interesting story than most. But those stargates must be really tough. Survive a direct hit from a meteor and keep on tickin'. Must be made by Timex.
Maybe the problem is your unwillingness to just take the episode on its merits. Maybe we shouldn't obsess unduly over a TV series' overall coherency if the trade-off is an episode that, as you said is "more interesting than most".
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Post by All_Day_SCI-fi »

Really? Are you saying that people don't sometimes lack thought? That it's unrealistic for people to do things that don't seem entirely thought through?

These guys made a mistake. Why is that unrealistic?
We are talking about a show where people use explosive devices all of the time. I don't know how many episodes I have seen missiles fired through the gate.

It is obvious that the T'ealc character was put into a dangerous position JUST FOR THE DRAMA. That way the woman could hear the radio just when she was throwing Jack's stuff away and she had to decide whether or not to tell him. And then Jack could find T'ealc with the RDF, Radio Direction Finder, and help dig him out in the nick of time.

No, that was not a mistake it was "smart" television theatrics.

That is why the line about "taking the fun out" is so significant to me. The way I analyze things tends to take the fun out for other people. That is why I never saw this episode until it came on Hulu. I stopped watching SG-1 in the 2nd season.

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Beyone This Horizon

Post by All_Day_SCI-fi »

I just made an ancient rediscovery.

I read this essay by Alexei Panshin because I like his book Rite of Passage. He mentioned the Heinlein book Beyond This Horizon. So I tracked it down and read it. It turns out I was re-reading it. There is a scene with a gun duel in a restaurant and I have remembered that since FOREVER but for the life of me I could not have told you where it came from. BTH is where.

www.enter.net/~torve/critics/HeinleinRoP/rahrop1.htm

But this book is full of ideas that probably went over my head when I was in grade school. Plenty of politics and genetic engineering. But it has a history of Eugenics Wars and Khans. This is where the idea for Star Trek's Space Seed came from.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_This_Horizon

With scientists creating artificial life the politics in the book is more relavant than it was in 1942.

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Politics in SF and fantasy

Post by taraswizard »

This might be returning thread to original intent. However, I have two or so inputs on that topic. About two years ago, at a fan convention I went to, one of the discussion leaders said: '
Walter Mosley, writer of Easy Rawlins books and some SF, said all genres of pop fiction are conservative because they uphold the status quo; however, SF is not because it subverts the status quo
Some time before, while attending LosCon, during a discussion session lead by Niven and Pournelle, one of the audience said:
of course SF is conservative because it believes in technology, and all liberals are technology hating, tech bashing Luddites.
Considering the genre's history, many of the Futurians (a club of fans and future pros based in NY during the 1930s, members included Donald Wolheaim, Fred Pohl) were very mixed up in far left wing politics. And some years later I read that Issac Asimov was very disturbed and repulsed by the right wing tendencies of American Mensa; by the way, Mensa was an organization that had Asimov as its Honorary International VP until his death.
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Post by Orlion »

Here's a quote that your post reminds me of:
Treitel wrote:If SF is the literature of change, then fantasy is the literature of longing ... Fantasy often ends with the reestablishment of order, with evil conquered and good on the throne. SF often ends with the establishment of a new order, a new way of doing things, with the evolution to a higher order.
I feel the nature of that change will determine whether or not that Science Fiction is conservative or liberal.
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Post by Vraith »

Orlion wrote:Here's a quote that your post reminds me of:
Treitel wrote:If SF is the literature of change, then fantasy is the literature of longing ... Fantasy often ends with the reestablishment of order, with evil conquered and good on the throne. SF often ends with the establishment of a new order, a new way of doing things, with the evolution to a higher order.
I feel the nature of that change will determine whether or not that Science Fiction is conservative or liberal.
That's a pretty good quote/point, in a general/genre way. Of course, what it leaves out is that the "evolution" of SF stories almost always results in an order that puts a new good on the throne.
Still...back to what Tara was talking about: Much "hard" SF has a conservative core, even if not in the political sense, because at root it MUST "follow the rules." Thing is though, even with that core they can [and do] play with the politics/peoples behavior...because very very few of them, even the most rigid, think that humans don't have free will. What the very best of them do is point out that no matter how conservative the physics of existence might be it never justifies pure ideology/inflexible tradition/unalterable culture. The rules of physics are one thing...we HAVE to obey them. The rules of people are a different kind entirely.
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the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Walter Mosley, writer of Easy Rawlins books and some SF, said all genres of pop fiction are conservative because they uphold the status quo; however, SF is not because it subverts the status quo
Thinking of conversative as "sustaining the status quo" and liberal as "advocating change" is a pretty worthless, misleading, and uninteresting way to categorize these two complex schools of thought. It's a distinction that has very little basis in reality. It's main function (in this disussion at least) is to force these two ideologies into rigid, cliched boxes in order to pack them neatly into the s.f./fantasy context. I'm not even sure why anyone would want to do that. Does equating conservatives with Elves and Dwarves illustrate how silly conservatives are? Does equating libererals with forward-thinking scientists make them more respectable and realistic by comparison? Does anyone here think that Donaldson is conservative while he writes the Chronicles, but turns into a liberal when he writes the Gap? This way of thinking is pointless and silly.

While it's true that conservative principles today often align with the Constitutional principles of the past, this alignment doesn't happen merely because conservatives are interested in the status quo. The Constitution was pretty radical and Revolutionary when it was written. And it contains its own mechanism for change (Amendments). Remaining the same was never part of its intended purpose, nor it is a conservative principle in itself. Any ideal that people cling to can become the status quo, whether it's a liberal or conservative ideal.

For instance, liberals have advocated Big Government solutions for over a century. And in many ways this ideal has become a new status quo: our government keeps spending more, taxing more, providing more services, and growing in size and power. So if this has been the way we conduct ourselves for nearly a century, then why isn't liberalism equated with the status quo? How long does it take before a "new" way of doing business becomes the status quo? In as much as liberals keep advocating change, they do this because they haven't completed their goal yet (which, I suppose, must be some Utopian level of government taking care of you and controling society). But once they reach that level, will there still be a need for change? Once they get what they want (universal health care, free everything), why would they want to change it? [Well, I suppose as long as someone has more money than someone else, that somone else will see a role for the government to even up the scales by confiscating the money and giving it to himself. In this sense, we can say that liberalism is perpetually focused on Change because it can never achieve its extremely unrealistic goal of perfectly equal outcomes.]

If we go issue-by-issue, the picture becomes even more muddled. Liberals don't want Roe-vs-Wade overturned. Doesn't that mean they support the status quo of abortion rights? On the other hand, conservatives have succeeded in overturning gun control laws this year with two landmark SCOTUS rulings. Doesn't that mean that conservatives have succeeded in bringing about change in gun laws?? Or look at taxes. Have you noticed that no one is for keeping tax rates the same? Conservatives are perpetually for smaller taxes, and liberals are perpetually for higher taxes. Both sides attack the status quo from different directions.

But we can also take this full-circle by considering the opposite case. Let's suppose I'm wrong. Let's say that conservatives truly are resistent to change. Why would that be? Are they frightened of the Future? Do they fear their power threatened? Are they small-minded people who need the comforting rituals of tradition? Well, obviously those are loaded questions which assume a perspective that Change is good and resisting it is bad. Those questions ignore what the Change is, by assuming that there is no specific Change which conservatives conceivably resist--but instead fear all Change ... Change in general. Those are liberal assumptions, liberal questions.

Let's instead look at it from the perspective of a conservative: the Change which our country perpetually experiences is a never-ending trend of the government getting bigger, more powerful, more expensive, more controling. That's a historical fact. That's what's happening to us. Our taxes go up, our freedoms become restricted, our lives become increasingly regulated. In the context of those actual changes, "supporting the status quo" is just another way of saying, "resisting liberalism." It's not that we (conservatives) want our country to stagnate. We just don't want it to become more liberal ... just as liberals don't want it to become more conservative. It's the same exact desire, expressed through two different ideological perspectives. The only reason this natural tension between two ideologies can be framed in terms status quo and Change is because one of those ideologies is in direct contradiction with our founding principles which make us America. In order for liberals to remake the country in their image, they must take it away from its founding principles of limited government and maximized freedom. By characterizing their opponents as fearing Change in general, liberals divert attention away from the question of whether the particular changes which they want to impliment are desirable in the first place. Not all Change is for the better. Conservatives resist destructive, restrictive, expensive change. If you want to make life cheaper and freer, we're all for that Change.
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