The Four Founding Races

[Onos T'oolan]

Really, the T'lan Imass are the only race that really "founded" other races, right? Yeah, the Jhag are half-Jaghut, but there's not all that many of them. At least not in the first five books. And the K'chain Che'Malle and Forkrul Assail didn't lead to anything. (Again, as far as the first five books goes.) But several races evolved from the Imass.

But I suppose "founding" could mean lots of other stuff. Lots of history, ruins, magical traditions, written history (Gothos), and many more things.

Of the four, I guess the Forkrul Assail are the most powerful. As individuals go. One of them seems capable of taking out huge numbers or anybody else in the world. Bugg warns the Toblakai spirits; Onrack says, "...when have we ever triumphed in a clash with Forkrull Assail?"


EDIT: No that I'm done with MT, maybe the Forkrul Assail aren't quite as tough as I thought. Certainly tougher than anybody else, but still, beatable.

[Holsety]

EDIT: No that I'm done with MT, maybe the Forkrul Assail aren't quite as tough as I thought. Certainly tougher than anybody else, but still, beatable.

I still think that in terms of power per capita the Jaghut are the strongest race. I really don't know anything about the Forkrul Assail, but while they seem really crazy strong in terms of close combat we don't know if they even have a magic system, aka a way to really easily screw with what's going on in the world.

As far as founding stuff, it's hard to really even qualify the imass as a founding race. From what I understood of House of Chains' stuff, humanity is basically descended from Kilava, who went against the direction that all the other imass went (in other words, you could argue that if the imass as a race had had their way, there wouldn't be a humanity). Well, I'm still really confused on that since MoI said that Kilava had lost her kids...

[Onos T'oolan]

I still think that in terms of power per capita the Jaghut are the strongest race.

Yeah, could be. A Tyrant is about as powerful a thing as we've seen.

I really don't know anything about the Forkrul Assail, but while they seem really crazy strong in terms of close combat we don't know if they even have a magic system, aka a way to really easily screw with what's going on in the world.

I certainly haven't heard anything like that about them. They can survive being buried under a stone of many tons for a couple hundred millennia, but that, and their fighting ability, doesn't mean they are more than physically extraordinary. And if Serenity could have used magic to save himself from an ass-whoopin' in MT, he probably would have.

As far as founding stuff, it's hard to really even qualify the imass as a founding race. From what I understood of House of Chains' stuff, humanity is basically descended from Kilava, who went against the direction that all the other imass went (in other words, you could argue that if the imass as a race had had their way, there wouldn't be a humanity). Well, I'm still really confused on that since MoI said that Kilava had lost he kids...

Crap. Does it? I only remember the prologue saying she'd recently given birth. Well, if she did have any that survived, it doesn't matter if all humanity descended only from her, or that the other Imass would not have had it so. She was Imass, and humanity descended from her.

And isn't that how our own evolution is supposed to have happened? All mitochondrial DNA comes from one female ancestor? "The Real Eve"? Or Lucy? Or somebody or other?

[Holsety]

Crap. Does it? I only remember the prologue saying she'd recently given birth. Well, if she did have any that survived, it doesn't matter if all humanity descended only from her, or that the other Imass would not have had it so. She was Imass, and humanity descended from her.

Haha. Now that I actually think about it her kids might have just been passed off to someone else.

I took it as her kids having died because I thought it made sense, in terms of her going way out on a limb to save the jaghut kids. But when I think about it there isn't any real indication as to what precisely happened to her imass kids. Ya, just forget about that, not a big plot hole there.

And if Serenity could have used magic to save himself from an ass-whoopin' in MT, he probably would have.

Maybe. I guess that to some extent the fact that he initiated the whole conflict says he'd really be putting himself into it. But the FA are pretty tough to figure out; I don't remember who it is in particular that's said this, but in general their "fall" is attributed more to lethargy than a lack of power. So as silly as it is, with any FA the possibility is always there that they might stop fighting because they don't care. After all, from his POV he had already succeeded in killing rhulad.

[dANdeLION]

I thought the K'Chain Che'Malle (or is that K'Coup De'Ville?) were the original species. Not that I care. I don't like them. I don't like their name, and if I read it correctly, they altered themselves to have swords instead of forearms and hands, which seems pretty stupid. I mean, how do they pick their noses? Wipe their butts? Hug their children? Hold a beer bottle? Open their letters? Oh yeah, they can do that last one. But can they write letters? Of course, I might not be remembering it correctly. Anyway, a race of intelligent lizard naming themselves after a type of Cadillac just doesn't seem right to me.

[Avatar]

It was only one of the soldier classes who had that alteration. The K'ell Hunters, IIRC. The others had normal hands. Claws. Whatever.

K'Coup De'Ville

Ever read the Amtrak Wars series?

--A

[aliantha]

dAN, you just started Dust of Dreams, right? Let me know what you think of the K'Chain Che'malle after you've finished the book.

[dANdeLION]

I'm not going to do that, as nothing I've mentioned having a problem with will have changed by the end of DoD (and, you can't make me!). Again, I don't like their name (tho I do like the Shania Twain song with the same name), and I don't like sword hands. Otherwise, I have no problems with Raptors being in the Malazan universe.

[aliantha]

Okey doke, suit yourself....

[dANdeLION]

I will. In fact, I think YOU should reread it and report back to ME!

[aliantha]

Maybe I will!

[dANdeLION]

Okay, I have about 60 pages left. So far I've read nothing to make me K'change my C'mind about the stupid lizard names. I do, however, seem to have a slight problem. What in the hell am I going to do until the final book comes out? I suppose I could re-read the series.......or maybe I'll just get Return of the Crimson Guard and save the re-read until I have it all.

[aliantha]

60 pages left, you say? Keep reading.

I'm at the same crossroads re: what to do 'til the final book comes out. Right now I'm rereading Runes and will probably reread Fatal Revenant after that. But then...I dunno. I might reread Dust of Dreams, at least. Dunno if I could get through the entire Malazan canon at one go.

[Avatar]

It appears that's what I'm about to do...again.

--A

[lucimay]

its what i'm doing too! and whoa...there's a LOT more information about what i refer to as the "meta" thread (and don't ask me to define the meta thread, it'd take too long and i'm on my lunch break) but anyway, there's a LOT of sort of explanitory info in House of Chains.

i keep changing my mind as to which of these books is my favorite.

so i started at the beginning again and am at bonehunters right now.

dAN have ya not read Return of the Crimson Guard yet?? you really sorta need to read that. else you're missing a big piece of the puzzle.

[dANdeLION]

60 pages left, you say? Keep reading.

Okay, I'm done now. I admit it; the lizards ended up surprising me. Who'd have expected a race that had mastered anti-gravity technology, genetics, etc. would have been so utterly stupid when it came to the are of strategy? What a bunch of idiots! No wonder they were extinct. Erikson gave them stupid names because they are stupid creatures, despite their technical proficiencies.

i keep changing my mind as to which of these books is my favorite.

For me it was Memories of Ice.

[I'm Murrin]

They were hive mind creatures who'd been sequestered away in an isolated tower for hundreds of thousands of years under the control of a severely mentally deranged queen who died not long before the battle. So yeah, not in a good position to fight.

Plus I thought the book drummed in that what the matron did was actually unnecessary and probably stupid, given her insanity.

Besides, it wasn't the long-tails who mastered anti-gravity, it was the non-hive-mind, mountain-sailing short-tails who almost slaughtered the whole lot of them who did that.

[dANdeLION]

Long tails, short tails; they're all just lizards to me. Speaking of, aren't lizards cold-blooded? Someone ought to have opened up an ice warren on them, and been done with them once and for all.

[dANdeLION]

dAN have ya not read Return of the Crimson Guard yet?? you really sorta need to read that. else you're missing a big piece of the puzzle.

As I have been ordered, so has the book.

[lucimay]

excellent!