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Orlion
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Post by Orlion »

Zarathustra wrote:
Cail wrote:They way I read that, Obama has (or will) direct the DoJ to appeal the ruling so that it can be decided in Congress rather than judicially.

If that's the case, Obama is a blithering idiot.
I agree, but maybe there is a strategy within the idiocy. When Republicans take over Congress, they'll get the blame for killing it, and not the Dems. Don't underestimate Obama's zeal for blaming Republicans.

Of course, the Republicans could surprise us all, and take this issue away from the Dems. After all, the Log Cabin Reps are the ones pushing this.
Maybe, but at the cost of Democrats losing legislative power? All this is doing is converting more people to the "maybe we should vote out the democraps" side. Nothing undermines your message for progressive change than taking a few steps backwards.

[Though at the same time, it should be added that if the DADT is decided by a Congress dominated by Republicans and it remains, it could pay political dividends when he comes back to re-election and consolidate power in Congress during that election... *sigh*]
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Post by Cail »

I guess my frustration is based on the fact that this was a campaign issue for Obama, and his justice department has totally dropped the ball (at least in terms of DOMA). It would be completely in character for this administration to appeal the decision, especially given that Obama has flat-out said that he opposes equal rights for homosexuals.
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Post by Cail »

No surprise here.....
In a move that should not surprise anyone but could further frustrate the Democratic base, the Obama administration is expected to appeal the federal judge’s ruling that struck down the military’s “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy.
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by duchess of malfi »

Vraith wrote:Honestly, there is NO reason for DADT, DOMA, or anti-gay marriage to be in place, it shouldn't be necessary to have court cases to fight over it, so tell the people who are anti-homosexual to grow up.
If only the expansion of basic human rights to all humans could be this straight forward and easy. **sigh**

People seem to always have to fight in one way or another for them - whether freedom of religion, or expansion of basic rights to women, people of color, and now to gay/bi/lesbian/transgendered (and I am sure you guys could come up with a bunch of other examples).
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Post by Avatar »

Yeah, and turning this into a political issue is just so...politician-like. This is an equal rights issue too.

Hell, I'd think the army would be glad to have anybody willing to join. :lol:

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Post by SerScot »

DoM,
duchess of malfi wrote:
Vraith wrote:Honestly, there is NO reason for DADT, DOMA, or anti-gay marriage to be in place, it shouldn't be necessary to have court cases to fight over it, so tell the people who are anti-homosexual to grow up.
If only the expansion of basic human rights to all humans could be this straight forward and easy. **sigh**

People seem to always have to fight in one way or another for them - whether freedom of religion, or expansion of basic rights to women, people of color, and now to gay/bi/lesbian/transgendered (and I am sure you guys could come up with a bunch of other examples).
I'm opposed to DADT but I don't believe the opportunity to serve in the Military is a "basic human right". After all there are people with physical impediments that will not allow them to serve in the infantry. If the opportunity to serve in the military is a "human right" they an armless legless man who wants to be an infantryman couldn't be turned away. That would create significant problems.
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Post by Cail »

Obama Seeks Stay on Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell Ruling
Saying it would appeal a ruling striking down the law that bans gay men and lesbians from serving openly in the United States military, the Obama administration on Thursday asked the federal judge who issued the ruling for an emergency stay of her decision.

In a 48-page court filing, Clifford L. Stanley, the under secretary of defense for personnel and readiness, argued that the military, particularly in wartime, should not be required to “suddenly and immediately restructure a major personnel policy that has been in place for years.” Mr. Stanley said the injunction would disrupt efforts to prepare for a more orderly repeal of the policy.

“The stakes here are so high, and the potential harm so great, that caution is in order,” he said.

Mr. Stanley’s declaration was the centerpiece of a set of administration filings before Judge Virginia A. Phillips of Federal District Court. Last month, she declared the “don’t ask, don’t tell” law to be unconstitutional, and this week she issued an injunction requiring the military to stop enforcing it immediately.

The Log Cabin Republicans, the group that brought the lawsuit against the policy, vowed to fight the administration’s appeal of Judge Phillips’s ruling before the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, and the request for an emergency stay of the injunction.

“We are not surprised by the government’s action, as it repeats the broken promises and empty words from President Obama avowing to end ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ while at the same directing his Justice Department to defend this unconstitutional policy,” said Dan Woods, a lawyer representing the group. “Now that the government has filed a request for a stay, we will oppose it vigorously because brave, patriotic gays and lesbians are serving in our armed forces to fight for all of our constitutional rights while the government is denying them theirs.”

Mr. Obama campaigned against the “don’t ask, don’t tell” law and has asked Congress to repeal it. But his efforts have been criticized by supporters of equal rights for gay men and lesbians as too slow and insufficient, and the lawsuit has put his administration in an awkward political position.

At a town-hall-style meeting with young adults on Thursday, Mr. Obama noted that he had been working on getting the law repealed and that a court had recently struck it down as unconstitutional, although he did not specifically address his administration’s appeal of the ruling.

“I agree with the basic principle that anybody who wants to serve in our armed forces and make sacrifices on our behalf, on behalf of our national security — anybody should be able to serve, and they shouldn’t have to lie about who they are in order to serve. And so we are moving in the direction of ending this policy,” he said.

But, he added: “It has to be done in a way that is orderly, because we are involved in a war right now. But this is not a question of whether the policy will end. This policy will end, and it will end on my watch. But I do have an obligation to make sure that I’m following some of the rules. I can’t simply ignore laws that are out there. I’ve got to work to make sure that they are changed.”

Meanwhile on Thursday, the top uniformed lawyers in each military service — three-star officers known as the judge advocates general — sent an e-mail to military lawyers in the field formally informing them of Judge Phillips’s injunction.

“The e-mail noted that the U.S. government is contemplating whether to appeal and to seek a stay of the injunction,” a Pentagon spokesman, Col. Dave Lapan, said in a statement. “The Department of Defense will of course obey the law, and the e-mail noted that, in the meantime, the department will abide by the terms in the court’s ruling, effective as of the time and date of the ruling.”

The Pentagon’s general counsel, Jeh Johnson, was part of the decision to send the e-mail, Colonel Lapan said. Mr. Johnson and Mr. Stanley have both been part of a working group that has been assessing the impact of a repeal of the law, and developing a plan to implement it should it occur.

In his declaration, Mr. Stanley discussed those efforts. He argued that ending the policy would require training of military service members, as well as a reworking of dozens of policies and regulations involving issues like “housing, benefits, re-accession, military equal opportunity, anti-harassment, standards of conduct, rights and obligations of the chaplain corps, and others.”

“Amending these regulations would typically take several months,” he said. “To change all of the implicated policies and underlying regulations will require a massive undertaking by the department and cannot be done overnight.”
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by Vraith »

SerScot wrote:DoM,
duchess of malfi wrote:
Vraith wrote:Honestly, there is NO reason for DADT, DOMA, or anti-gay marriage to be in place, it shouldn't be necessary to have court cases to fight over it, so tell the people who are anti-homosexual to grow up.
If only the expansion of basic human rights to all humans could be this straight forward and easy. **sigh**

People seem to always have to fight in one way or another for them - whether freedom of religion, or expansion of basic rights to women, people of color, and now to gay/bi/lesbian/transgendered (and I am sure you guys could come up with a bunch of other examples).
I'm opposed to DADT but I don't believe the opportunity to serve in the Military is a "basic human right". After all there are people with physical impediments that will not allow them to serve in the infantry. If the opportunity to serve in the military is a "human right" they an armless legless man who wants to be an infantryman couldn't be turned away. That would create significant problems.
There's a huge difference, here. Excluding a legless man from infantry is due to the fact that he simply can't do the job. Gay men have been soldiers forever...killed the enemy, saved lives. They're perfectly capable.
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Post by SerScot »

Vraith,

My point is that there is no "human right" to serve in the Military. If it is a "human right" then you get nonsensical results like a quadrapeligic serving as in infantryman.

I absolutely agree that homosexuals can, have, and will serve and serve well in the military. My point is that DADT doesn't violate their "human rights".
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Post by duchess of malfi »

SerScot wrote:Vraith,

My point is that there is no "human right" to serve in the Military. If it is a "human right" then you get nonsensical results like a quadrapeligic serving as in infantryman.

I absolutely agree that homosexuals can, have, and will serve and serve well in the military. My point is that DADT doesn't violate their "human rights".
On the other hand, if a quadriplegic wants to serve, there are plenty of other jobs in the military other than infantymen. I am sure they could find something for him/her - perhaps a desk job using specially modified computers.

No reason to turn anyone away if there is a needed job they can do.

While it might not be a human right, it is a very human trait for many to wish to serve others in a meaningful way. And the military (I do not think many people know about the frequent humanitarian missions the US military engages in, such as medical missions to Third World countries?) can be a very meaningful way.

But that is a completely different subject. :wink:
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Post by SerScot »

DoM,

I don't disagree. My problem with your "human right" statement is that if the opportunity for military service is a human right, everyone should get to serve where they want to serve regardless of disability. That will create problems.
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“We are not surprised by the government’s action, as it repeats the broken promises and empty words from President Obama avowing to end ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ while at the same directing his Justice Department to defend this unconstitutional policy,” said Dan Woods, a lawyer representing the group. “Now that the government has filed a request for a stay, we will oppose it vigorously because brave, patriotic gays and lesbians are serving in our armed forces to fight for all of our constitutional rights while the government is denying them theirs.”
Amen.

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Post by Vraith »

The problem here is that if the decision is NOT appealed, then it is NOT a binding precedent. It needs to be decided at a higher court level for that to be the case.
And I believe [though not positive] that as things are now, ONLY the DOJ has the court standing to appeal.
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Post by Avatar »

So it would actually be in their interests not to appeal? (Because that would mean it was not binding and nobody had to follow it?) :lol:

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Post by Cail »

No, that's not what it means. It means that a court has found it unconstitutional, and that's that. If it's not appealed then the decision is legally binding even though the law stays on the books. It cannot be enforced though. Congress can strike the law (or render it moot) after the fact.
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Post by SerScot »

Cail,

Given that it's a District Court decision it would only be binding precident in the District where that Court has jurisdiction. It would still be peruasive precident elsewhere but not binding.
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Post by Cail »

SerScot wrote:Cail,

Given that it's a District Court decision it would only be binding precident in the District where that Court has jurisdiction. It would still be peruasive precident elsewhere but not binding.
My bad, you're right.
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by Vraith »

Cail wrote:
SerScot wrote:Cail,

Given that it's a District Court decision it would only be binding precident in the District where that Court has jurisdiction. It would still be peruasive precident elsewhere but not binding.
My bad, you're right.
HEY! I was right first!
Anyway, the problem with persuasive precedent is that it's only persuasive, and there is no rule that says it MUST be considered, only that is MAY be considered.
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Post by aliantha »

Vraith wrote:
Cail wrote:
SerScot wrote:Cail,

Given that it's a District Court decision it would only be binding precident in the District where that Court has jurisdiction. It would still be peruasive precident elsewhere but not binding.
My bad, you're right.
HEY! I was right first!
Anyway, the problem with persuasive precedent is that it's only persuasive, and there is no rule that says it MUST be considered, only that is MAY be considered.
Exactly. It's sort of a second-tier precedent anywhere but in the original District Court's jurisdiction.
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But if they appeal it and the appeal is struck down then it's binding everywhere?

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