If... (Re: the conversation of Stave and Linden, p. 468-473)

[Auleliel]

I have hated Linden Avery for several years, ever since I first became acquainted with her. I have never been able to adequately articulate my reasons for this intense dislike, and perhaps I did not fully understand myself.
This brief conversation has brought new insight to me. I now comprehend my frustration and anger and disdain of Linden Avery, and with that comprehension (along with various circumstances throughout the whole of AATE), my dislike of her is somewhat lessened; not gone--if we met face to face I'd still slap her silly--but definitely diminished in its intensity.
Because, a good percentage (not all) of my dislike of Linden Avery stems from what is explained in the conversation Stave and Linden have:

Like a man who had resolved a conundrum, Stave stated, "That you share with High Lord Kevin Landwaster, who is now forgiven by his sires. If.
"Summoned to a parley with or concerning the Demondim, if he had not sent his friends and fellow Lords in his stead. Concerned and grieving for your son, if you had heeded Anele's desire for the Sunstone. You believe that you might have acted otherwise, and that you are culpable for your failure to do so. Thus you open your heart to despair, as High Lord Kevin did also."
...
...
"Rather you demean all who stand with you by believing that there can be no other fault than yours, and that no fault of yours can be condoned."
...
...
Blind to the implications of her actions, she had in some sense treated all of her friends like children or invalids.

I think this if, combined with her mistrust of everyone around her, was a major contribution to making her seem so whiny and irresponsible and futile and irrational. But I also sense that she is starting to grow out of this bad habit.

I still very much dislike Linden Avery, and I'm not going to relinquish my membership in THOOLAH, but I think I understand her a little bit better, and I can read the occasional (please let it only be occasional!) chapter from her POV without wanting to throw the book at the wall in fury.

[mod edit - no need for spoiler tags for AATE material in this forum.]

[Shadowslance]

I just found out about THOOLAH today for the very first time. I never realized just how unpopular a character she is. I thought that, even with her propensity to whine she still was an interesting character.

Linden is one of those people who want to be able to help but blame themselves if things go wrong. If I had just done X, Y, or Z that wouldn't have happened. There are many people who are like that and take responsibility for things that they cannot control. It is a bad habit because you cannot possibly be responsible for every bad thing that happens to another person. Everyone makes their own choices and the consequences of those choices, be they good or ill, fall directly on the person who makes that decision. If you don't change that pattern of thinking you'll eventually cripple yourself with guilt time and time again rendering yourself powerless. You will not want to act because you are afraid your actions will cause more problems. I'm sure that if I checked it's probably a symptom of some kind of personality disorder. This is just a case of a character in SRD's books being a flawed human.

Look at Linden's character in the other books. She feels responsible because she didn't do more to prevent Joan from being taken by Roger. She didn't do more to prevent the deaths that Roger caused in taking Joan and Jeremiah. She has white gold and the Staff of the Law making her one of the most powerful people in the land and she is effectively incapable of taking decisive action because she fears her choices.

Yeah a whiny character can get old, but remember she's human. She's got power but not the confidence to act. I have a feeling that it's going to get to a point where she's is going to have to act, without thinking, and then it will dawn on her just what she is capable of doing. After that point she'll begin to leave the whiny part of her behind.

[Ur Dead]

I'll defend Linden for what she has done with the burdens and restrictions that was placed on her.

But I would never take her on a date.

[Vraith]

That was actually one of my favorite passages so far in the last chron's, on my first really fast read through.

[aliantha]

There are many people who are like that and take responsibility for things that they cannot control. It is a bad habit because you cannot possibly be responsible for every bad thing that happens to another person.

You can't even be responsible for every bad thing that happens to *you*. Sometimes you're standing under the pigeon when nature calls, y'know? It's nobody's fault. But some would be inclined to curse the pigeon, and some would make themselves crazy by wondering how they could be so flawed to be standing there *just then*.

[Auleliel]

That was actually one of my favorite passages so far in the last chron's, on my first really fast read through.

Me too. Definitely one of my favorites, and probably one of the more important passages in AATE.

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

I dunno... "The road to Desecration is paved with counterfactual intentions," seems to me like too-quick emotional theorizing on SRD's part. I like that he has very knowing things to say about psychology (like about how to hurt someone who's lost everything), but this "If" thing is... well, iffy.

[starkllr]

I dunno... "The road to Desecration is paved with counterfactual intentions," seems to me like too-quick emotional theorizing on SRD's part. I like that he has very knowing things to say about psychology (like about how to hurt someone who's lost everything), but this "If" thing is... well, iffy.

I agree.

I do think there's some truth to what Stave says; claiming responsibility for the choices - and the results - of others is certainly a path to despair.

But that totally glosses over Linden's real crime - her clear, stated (to herself, if not to anyone else) willingness to actively endanger or even destroy the Earth in order to save Jeremiah.

She lies to herself - in FR, she tells herself that, if good cannot come from evil means, that she'll "choose to believe her means aren't evil".

She ignores the warnings of the Ranyhyn, of the Masters, of Sunder and Hollian, and of Infelice (who tells her that she is "driven by mistaken love to bring about the end of all things!" - it really can't get much clearer than that!).

And she tries to justify her choice by comparing it to Covenant's refusal of Mhoram to save the snakebitten girl, when the two situations and choices are worlds apart.

In Covenant's case, the people being refused accept his refusal. Mhoram opts to take the risk of defeat without Covenant's help (which Covenant still doesn't know how to use at that point), so that Covenant can save an life that nobody else would be able to. And in any case, it's a choice of "help A" or "help B" where it's not possible to help both.

For Linden, at least some of the people/beings involved reject her choice (and are actively prevented from opposing her). And the choice she's making is to "destroy B to possibly help A", where "B" is the world and everyone on it.

That's the desecration.

[Vraith]

I think you're giving the "if" thing too little weight in the specific issue it is in answer to, and too much as a totality of Linden. [The resurrection and Andelain, for instance is stated directly as being non-Kevin.]
Have to keep in mind that Linden is a split being. The way she was damaged by the daddy incident and the way damaged by the mommy incident are two fundamentally different kinds of wound. When she tries to avoid being as she was with her father, it drives her to do as she did with her mother, and vice versa. This is an essential part of her paradox.
And along with all the other problems of taking responsibility for other's actions/choices is the additional one that, in her own person, she is not "accepting responsibility" she is "taking the blame." Entirely different thing.

[Aleksandr]

There's something in Stave's words similar to what the Creator told Covenant at the end of the First Chrons: that his need to feel responsible for all the losses in Land was a more complex form of suicide.

[aliantha]

She ignores the warnings of the Ranyhyn, of the Masters, of Sunder and Hollian, and of Infelice (who tells her that she is "driven by mistaken love to bring about the end of all things!" - it really can't get much clearer than that!).

Just as an aside, I don't put too much stock in Infelice's warning. As far as she's concerned, "the end of all things" means the Elohim being devoured by the Worm. *All* of her dismay stems from Linden's awakening of the Worm. But there's been some plausible speculation here that Jeremiah might have built a hiding place for the Elohim -- something that would never have occurred to any of the Elohim, focused as they are on saving their own butts (and the Land as a byproduct, maybe).

I just think Infelice is capable of being wrong. Or at least, capable of being misled by fear.

[Vraith]

I just think Infelice is capable of being wrong. Or at least, capable of being misled by fear.

You are much kinder than I am to them: As far as I can tell, they have been wrong about every important thing ever, and blame others for it half the time.

[lurch]

the consequence...the treating her friends like children or invalids..of Linden's " perspective" is her " handicap..her Leprosy. Linden is a doctor. She Fixes Broken Human Beings. She Fixes what people can't fix them selves. Her " perspective" is of Pretense. She believes she can fix anything. Joan is her failure.

Modern Man..uses Logic as a Fix..a solution to Problems. But Human Problems..no..Logic doesn't fix..There is that " Pretense"..the belief in something as real, but isn't..or putting something forth as True..which isn't True..Pretense. Again..logic builds robots..not human beings.

Linden is heavily Flawed in her Humanity,,because its based in ..I'm a Doctor..person of Science..thus Logic and Reason..and therefore can Fix anything. Her continued Failures are the result of her Pretense in her False Beliefs. .. Not saving Liand...may have Finally..got Linden to stop with the Pretense of herself..and Trust other perspective. It certainly looks that way now. Liand died so that Linden would let go of her pretense,,thus Jeremiah gets liberated.

[aliantha]

Linden is a doctor. She Fixes Broken Human Beings. She Fixes what people can't fix them selves. Her " perspective" is of Pretense. She believes she can fix anything. Joan is her failure.

I'd go farther than that. She hasn't been able to "fix" Jeremiah, either. And Joan can't possibly be the only chronic patient at her hospital. If she does believe she can fix anything, then she's in denial -- she's been surrounded by evidence to the contrary for years.

[lurch]

Yes,,accepting her " humanity" would eventually lead to her letting go of loving a dead person for all the years. She has denied " LOVE" by loving a unreciprocal " person".Jeremiah is of the same. But, Jerry is now " free". Possibly a new Creator in the making there,,and if so,,all the LOVE Linden can find will be of great import; Her purpose now that Jerry is free...? Interesting that she is at Zero..a blank...nil...when it comes to Love and Hope.

[SleeplessOne]

Linden is a doctor. She Fixes Broken Human Beings. She Fixes what people can't fix them selves. Her " perspective" is of Pretense. She believes she can fix anything. Joan is her failure.

I'd go farther than that. She hasn't been able to "fix" Jeremiah, either. And Joan can't possibly be the only chronic patient at her hospital. If she does believe she can fix anything, then she's in denial -- she's been surrounded by evidence to the contrary for years.

there are a few times in AATE where Linden herself reflects that doctors aren't really able to 'fix' anybody, that the healing usually comes from the patients themselves ...

[SerScot]

I'm not quite done with the book yet. I will admit that AATE is a slog that improves toward the end. My problem with Linden is that she is so wrapped up in her own despair and angst that she is unable to see the people around her. That's not a terribly appealing person to read about but I think I understand what Donaldson is driving at.

Linden is in the midst of despair. It's hard to find your way out when you are there.

[aliantha]

My problem with Linden is that she is so wrapped up in her own despair and angst that she is unable to see the people around her.

And that differs from Covenant in the 1st Chrons how, exactly?

[SerScot]

aliantha,

My problem with Linden is that she is so wrapped up in her own despair and angst that she is unable to see the people around her.

And that differs from Covenant in the 1st Chrons how, exactly?

There's a slight difference. Covenant was a repugnant git refusing to do anything. Linden is a despairing git attempting to do something while whining about how Covenant told her "not to touch me." The fact that the resurrected Covenant to essentailly take the baton from her boggles the mind given that she knew what he was, the *bleeping* keystone for the arch of time.

She was there when Covenant nearly woke the worm when he attempted to take a branch from the One Tree. Why did she imagine removeing Covenant from the Arch would have no larger impact? Then when it's done she harianges and moans about how horribly she screwed up. For the love of God move on and stop whining, please.

I suppose part of my problem is Donaldson has done the tortured anti-hero to death.

(BTW I'm enjoying the end of the book I've just arrived at the point where Jeremiah is doing Marrowmeld and Infelice just showed up.)

[Vraith]

aliantha,

My problem with Linden is that she is so wrapped up in her own despair and angst that she is unable to see the people around her.

And that differs from Covenant in the 1st Chrons how, exactly?

There's a slight difference. Covenant was a repugnant git refusing to do anything. Linden is a despairing git attempting to do something while whining about how Covenant told her "not to touch me." The fact that the resurrected Covenant to essentailly take the baton from her boggles the mind given that she knew what he was, the *bleeping* keystone for the arch of time.

She was there when Covenant nearly woke the worm when he attempted to take a branch from the One Tree. Why did she imagine removeing Covenant from the Arch would have no larger impact? Then when it's done she harianges and moans about how horribly she screwed up. For the love of God move on and stop whining, please.

I suppose part of my problem is Donaldson has done the tortured anti-hero to death.

(BTW I'm enjoying the end of the book I've just arrived at the point where Jeremiah is doing Marrowmeld and Infelice just showed up.)

Disagree quite a lot. Yes, she is seriously troubled. But:
She pays tons of attention to others.
She has actually ACTED more often that TC ever did.
It's at least as much TC's fault as hers that she brought him back.
I'm not so sure the results [her reaction to them anyway] are being judged correctly...I think she'd do it again is she had a mulligan.
And...a bit sharpness in the tone, but also humor since people seem delicate lately: Linden whines about .001% as often as people say, .00001% as often as some who say she whines, and with a couple orders of magnitude more justification for it.