Earthquakes & Tsunamis

[Zarathustra]

If MMT is correct, as seems to be the consensus around here, then Japan can just print its way out of this mess and doesn't need any money from anyone, because it has an unlimited supply of its own currency. Right?

And I could tell you where you've made wrong assumptions, but you clearly don't care to know, so I'll just say if you had read even the first page of the MMT thread, you'd know something was wrong with your statement.

There is nothing wrong with my statement. I was being sarcastic, in response to the recent trend (as seen in the We're Not Broke thread) of claiming that a crisis isn't a crisis because the government can never go broke.

I just reread the entire first page of the MMT thread, by the way, so I must assume that you didn't mean your statement (above) literally. There was nothing on the first page that was relevant to the question of one country with a fiat currency helping out another country with a fiat currency.

[Orlion]

If MMT is correct, as seems to be the consensus around here, then Japan can just print its way out of this mess and doesn't need any money from anyone, because it has an unlimited supply of its own currency. Right?

And I could tell you where you've made wrong assumptions, but you clearly don't care to know, so I'll just say if you had read even the first page of the MMT thread, you'd know something was wrong with your statement.

There is nothing wrong with my statement. I was being sarcastic, in response to the recent trend (as seen in the We're Not Broke thread) of claiming that a crisis isn't a crisis because the government can never go broke.

I just reread the entire first page of the MMT thread, by the way, so I must assume that you didn't mean your statement (above) literally. There was nothing on the first page that was relevant to the question of one country with a fiat currency helping out another country with a fiat currency.

Yeah, I paid you back in kind. Sow sarcasm, now reap it!
As far as the statement on the MMT thread, it's hyperbole. I don't remember where it's at, only that early on posts contradict what you claim MMT espouses.

As far as there not being a crisis, there is a distinction to be made: Fed and state. Feds can not go broke, yet that's a platform the Right is using to push forward what some here view as unsavory resolutions.

State level is a different matter economically.

Also, I'm not sure why I'm championing MMT at the moment, it's not like I view my economic views in those terms

[Zarathustra]

From what I've read (and understood) MMT makes a lot of sense. However, I think that like any theory it can be used by some people to advocate the very same policies which they advocated before they ever heard of MMT, as if it merely backs up their own prejudices and assumptions. This is what I see going on in the We're Not Broke thread, with the implication that wealthy people should be taxed more, combined with what's going on in the Wisconsin thread, about the rich getting richer at the expense of the middle class. Aliantha seems to think MMT means business as usual for liberal class warfare.

[Orlion]

From what I've read (and understood) MMT makes a lot of sense. However, I think that like any theory it can be used by some people to advocate the very same policies which they advocated before they ever heard of MMT, as if it merely backs up their own prejudices and assumptions. This is what I see going on in the We're Not Broke thread, with the implication that wealthy people should be taxed more, combined with what's going on in the Wisconsin thread, about the rich getting richer at the expense of the middle class. Aliantha seems to think MMT means business as usual for liberal class warfare.

Fair enough. On the record, I do think the rich are mostly getting richer through means that will destroy society, but I also think members of society allow themselves to be used in such a matter...

...and I also think the US should be making more stuff.

[Zarathustra]

Why should the US be making more stuff if we can get that same stuff cheaper by allowing other people to make it for us? Apply the same reasoning to your own life: how much would it cost you to build yourself a car? A lot more time and money than it takes to allow other people to build it for you. That's progress. That's Adam Smith's invisible hand. We get richer the more we tap into the efforts of other people who can do things cheaper and faster than we can. It would be insane to try to build your own car, and it would be foolish to build things ourselves that we can buy cheaper abroad.

[Orlion]

Why should the US be making more stuff if we can get that same stuff cheaper by allowing other people to make it for us? Apply the same reasoning to your own life: how much would it cost you to build yourself a car? A lot more time and money than it takes to allow other people to build it for you. That's progress. That's Adam Smith's invisible hand. We get richer the more we tap into the efforts of other people who can do things cheaper and faster than we can. It would be insane to try to build your own car, and it would be foolish to build things ourselves that we can buy cheaper abroad.

The problem with applying it to "my own life" is that I am an individual. I can do stuff as an individual (be self reliant) but that's not really an economy. I have to interact with someone else first.
I'm going somewhere with this, but it needs time to develop, so I'll state the following also:

Let's say Country X makes plates "faster and cheaper" than we do. That's not a guarantee of quality, since the "faster, cheaper" process may involve using deadly levels of lead. You see this happening all the time with, for example, China. It would be great to get stuff faster and cheaper if it's the same quality. China doesn't play by our rules. We get cheaper, but we don't even get a sensible amount of quality. And the market is such that it is getting increasingly difficult to buy products not from China...hell, it's an uphill battle trying to get companies to say where their products are made!

So, we as a nation get products that will hurt us, all so a company can make a couple more bucks they don't need.

[Cail]

Hmmmm........... Japan has apparently shifted 8 feet and the Earth's axis has shifted 4 inches.....so I heard!

Every major earthquake does this. The movement changes the distribution of mass in the Earth, which directly impacts both axis tilt and the rotational period (our day is now something like 1.4 microseconds shorter).

Proof positive that the Japanese can make everything smaller and more efficient.



























Too soon?

[Vraith]

Hmmmm........... Japan has apparently shifted 8 feet and the Earth's axis has shifted 4 inches.....so I heard!

Every major earthquake does this. The movement changes the distribution of mass in the Earth, which directly impacts both axis tilt and the rotational period (our day is now something like 1.4 microseconds shorter).

Proof positive that the Japanese can make everything smaller and more efficient.



























Too soon?

Heh...actually kinda funny...and perhaps topical for a new thread, cuz that annoying voice guy for parrots and ducks lost his job for making a similar joke, and someone [50 cent, maybe?] got crap for one, and CNN had to do a whole "How dare people do jokes about tragedies!" segment.

[Avatar]

I don't think it's ever too soon.

Laugh or cry man.

--A

[duchess of malfi]

Can someone explain to me why we should send Japan aid (or New Zealand, or Chile, or Haiti for that matter)? We're broke.

Because Japan helped us when we were in need?


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_res ... ne_Katrina

So?

I mean that's nice that they did, but the economic situation is drastically different now.

But it's a lot more than the money. No matter how much people practice and drill, once a true emergency happens, they are not entirely ready. Seriously. Take learning CPR for example - no comparison between working on a dummy and an actual human being.

Being able to send in rescue teams and the military so they can get experience in horrific widespread mass casualty situations will be invaluable if/when our major cities (such as ones in California, the Pacific Northwest, or the ones near the New Madrid fault) are destroyed.

I would actually split this into two arguments - the flat out money and the personnel.

I can see your point about the money - we (along with most of the world including Japan even before this current disaster) are in economic trouble.

Now sending personnel so they can get that experience and bring it home is another matter.

[Zarathustra]

The problem with applying it to "my own life" is that I am an individual.

True, but you're arguing for a similar position for our country: economic isolationism (at least, it seems that's what you're saying). However, the economy is global.

Point taken on inferior products. I don't want my kids playing with lead. However, it's easy to say, "we should build more products here." It's much harder to put that into practice in your own life. We already build millions of products here. The "problem" (in as much as there is a problem--personally I don't see one) is that Americans buy more imported products than we used to. For instance: what kind of car do you own? What brand of TV?

America didn't stop making stuff here for the hell of it. In as much as we have stopped making stuff here (which isn't true, but let's assume it is for simplicity) manufacturers have done so because consumers started buying imported goods instead. So instead of insisting that we make more stuff here, you should just buy more stuff made here. It can't happen the other way around. It has to start with consumers. So "applying it to your own life" is exactly what you should be doing, if this is your position. We can't simply demand that Americans make things which American won't buy.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

America didn't stop making stuff here for the hell of it. In as much as we have stopped making stuff here (which isn't true, but let's assume it is for simplicity) manufacturers have done so because consumers started buying imported goods instead. So instead of insisting that we make more stuff here, you should just buy more stuff made here. It can't happen the other way around. It has to start with consumers. So "applying it to your own life" is exactly what you should be doing, if this is your position. We can't simply demand that Americans make things which American won't buy.

I'll have to find him, but I heard a news story a few weeks ago about a guy who owns a retail store where he sells only items that are 100% "made in America". He has a wide variety of products, but nothing electronic at this time.

There was also a home redecorator here in the Metroplex who refurbished a home using only "made in America" furnishings, which wasn't as difficult as they thought it would be.

[Zarathustra]

To back up my point about this is an illusory problem:

The Myth of Manufacturing Decline
Americans often hear that some nefarious foreign trade practices are to blame for the decline of U.S. manufacturing. But the problem with that presumption of causation is that U.S. manufacturing is not in decline in the first place. Until the onset of the recent recession (when virtually every sector in the economy contracted), U.S. manufacturing was setting new performance records almost year after year in nearly all relevant statistical categories: profits, revenues, investment returns, output, value added, exports, imports, and others. After contracting during the recession of 2008 and 2009, the manufacturing sector has come roaring back. According to the Institute for Supply Management, economic activity expanded in the manufacturing sector for the 19th consecutive month in February 2011, reaching its highest level since May 2004.2

In absolute terms, the value of U.S. manufacturing has been growing continuously, with brief hiccups experienced during recessions over the past several decades. As a percentage of our total economy, the value of manufacturing peaked in 1953 and has been declining since, but that is the product of rapid growth in the services sectors and not — as evidenced by manufacturing's absolute growth — an indication of manufacturing decline.3

... According to polling data, Americans are generally skeptical about trade and its impact on jobs, manufacturing, and the U.S. economy. And why shouldn't they be? After all, the public is barraged routinely with misleading or simplistic coverage of trade issues by a media that is too often heavy on cliché, innuendo, and regurgitated conventional wisdom, and lacking in substance and analysis.

www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=12881

[Orlion]

My problem is that so much of (Orlion, quit hijacking the thread!) But I-(No! Get thee hence!) I'm just trying to- (The power of Christ compels you!) Hisssss!

[finn]

We have had a lot work shipped overseas from Australia and not just manufacturing and IT/call centres. The problem I have with it is that the money that would have been paid to a domestic workforce is paid to an overseas work force which takes it out of the economy altogether. The spend of the people formerly being paid to do those jobs would go to food, services, local produce; small businesses like, dry cleaners, hairdressers, cafes and restaurants, newsagents as well as grocers and various retailers...that money is used to boost an economy that is ultimately in competition with our own.

The underlying drivers are of course higher profits, with the spoon full of sugar being cheaper/more affordable goods. Of course they need to be more affordable as fewer can afford them if they are no longer working or their small businesses are forced to close because their customer base has disappeared!

The concept of outsourcing outside of an economy doesn't stack up in my book and a lot of even contemporary economic theories are based upon conditions which did not factor in outsourcing of production or services to other economies. Clearly the availability of cheap labour will make money for some, but the cyclical cost with be at the expense of their economy and to the benefit of the economies of their competitors.

The priciples of Sun Szu are often quoted and applied to business, if business is war, then outsourcing really is a form collaboration!